00:00:01
Sif: Hello and welcome to the Weird Thing podcast. This is episode [34], and this is probably going to be quite a long one as we talk about how we mysterious hosts and guest will make the world better, what we will do in our world. Because let’s be honest, it’s a bit of a, um, not a happy place out there at the moment. Put it lightly, the news is overwhelming at times, but let’s discuss things of a happier nature, of a more inclusive nature. So I’m Sif. I am one of your hosts. Today. We also have Gregor.

00:00:39
Frigga: Hi. Hi.

00:00:41
Sif: Amazing. And the absolutely wonderful Soleil. Would you like to introduce yourself?

00:00:47
Soleil: Oh, yes. Of course. First I want to say I am a little bit nervous because I feel very honoured to be here with you, talking about possibilities in future and things that should be, in my opinion, very normal and are not in this world. So yes, tell something about myself. Well, I’m 62 and why am I sharing that? Because I can’t still know that I am that old already. Because I feel like always exploring and always on adventure and finding new things to to work with and to make myself accomplished with. I think it I am the only one that can do something about the world, and I should not depend on others to do it for me. And that’s funny because I have a severe disability that makes people think that I am not capable of doing anything, and that I’m always in need of other people. And, um, well, that’s of course stupid in my opinion. Mm. Uh, because of course I need. I need others, but we do. We all do that. So I am sorry. I am trying to be very conscious in this life. I can talk for hours. Just leave it there. Maybe you get to know me during this chat.

00:02:16
Sif: Amazing. Welcome and thank you. A pleasure to have you here. Frigga. Do you want to introduce it properly?

00:02:23
Frigga: I don’t know if it’s introducing properly…

Sif: Better than mine.

00:02:28
Frigga: On my mind, I wanted to share. The Earth might be a wonderful, astonishingly beautiful planet, but that does not make life easy. It’s often harsh. The more reason to shape our worlds in a way that allows us to live well. As human beings, we have the capacity to imagine the future. Think for a moment of a future in which inclusivity and diversity are simply part of everyday life. As heathens and pagans, we know the importance of community. Storytelling runs through our veins, so to speak. We are deeply familiar with gathering around a fire and sharing stories. We know how powerful these can be before us. Allies and I begin sharing our stories. Stories how we would design the world. I would like to read two quotes. The first is by Yuval Noah Harari. He’s an historian, philosopher and writer. In 2014, he wrote, since large scale human cooperation is based on myth. The way people cooperate can be altered by changing the myths or by telling different stories. And the second one is from the author of The Good Ancestor. And I only can pronounce his first name. Not his last name. It’s too much letters in a very wrong combination.

00:04:15
Frigga: Um. It’s paraphrased from my Dutch edition. Changing the stories of who we are can change the way we think. So I imagine that in our world, there would be many moments together around a fire, whether it’s online or in person, to tell each other our stories. So, so light. Would you like to begin?

00:04:40
Soleil: My story? Well, I already said that. I think I’m the only one who can change anything. So I also like to think. To dream about how things are when I change them because I have to believe in myself. Otherwise it’s about to work. In that time that I still was Christian, I had this blog and I wrote a story about how heaven would look like, and I said, they do not have a sign for accessibility there. They don’t have it in the hope that people would think, well, it’s not necessary. But people began to think about it. Why don’t they have that there? But in my opinion, if you don’t need it, everything is accessible and everything is is diverse. In my world, that sign would be banished. If you need it, you have to change something. And I also know that. Well, this week at the office where I work, we had this meeting and one of the co-workers was working with his hearing aid, and I took that moment to just talk about accessibility and to inclusion. And so on. And he said, well, if everybody talks together for me, that’s awful. I can’t hear anything. And it’s annoying my brains and that needs everybody listen to that. And we agreed on not talk altogether but listen to each other. So his being vulnerable made the whole meeting better because we can’t we can’t help each other with that. It’s easy. And so I try to pick it up. Yeah. I think when we work together and we when we listen to each other, we can come very far. We can also understand when things don’t work, because that’s possible too. But if I want to go up on a mountain with my wheelchair, well, that might not work so well. So I can accept that that is not possible. But that doesn’t mean that I won’t try. Well, how much do you want to hear?

00:06:45
Frigga: I’m listening.

00:06:47
Sif: Yeah.

00:06:49
Soleil: Because I can go on forever.

00:06:52
Frigga: There is so, so much when we started to think about this episode and this this, how would we design that?

00:07:13
Frigga: Thinking about how would we design the world. There is so much and there is there is also, um, this switching between, uh, you know, this this, but. Oh, that is wrong. No, this is possible. That is possible. Oh, if I can do that, that would be possible. From what perspective are you talking? And there comes language, uh, which is I set my hyperfocus on the moment. And then I wonder if kids in school would be educated. Not. But the system is dictating, but really using their imagination. Learning the importance of language. Yeah. Then I said, oh, if I would have had somebody in my life who who had explained that to me, and if I would have known that from a young age, what a difference would that have been made it matter.

00:08:15
Soleil: Yeah. Every individual matters. And that he can change. He or her or whatever can change the world, even if it’s just a tiny little bit. But it’s so important for your the way you look at yourself, the way you feel about yourself. And if you know or are sure and other people, um, say that to you too, that you can change something you do, you will change something. The imagination, the dreaming. The The thinking of a better world is so important, and it’s so difficult to keep up with that because they tell you, no, that’s not possible. Don’t make yourself sad because it’s not going to work. And then I say, I will, I do, and if it’s not working, I have tried. So yeah, the education is very wrong. I have been in how do you say that normal schools in the Netherlands, everyone with a difference. And I’m not saying disability. Now everyone with a difference is going to a special school where they can have time for you, especially to give you the teaching that you need. I went to the special school one day and what did they teach me? How to be in my role as a person with a disability? Well, I want to differ because that was not my role. But at the schools were opened, they always still tried to put me in that role. I didn’t need to learn and didn’t need to know. And I was stupid anyway. And at home I was reading all these books about. Um, we call that a popular science. We had all, well, not a bookshelf, but a whole book cupboard with full of it. My English is not so good. So I knew, and I still know a lot of normal things. Just things that I think everybody should know and still I know things that people never heard of. I had a lot of struggle to go on. So in the world that is in my imagination, and I don’t like to say imagination because that means it’s not true. And I think it can be true. And here and there it is true. Some people are looking for knowledge, not for knowing. I don’t know if that makes sense in English.

00:10:39
Sif: Yeah.

00:10:40
Soleil: It’s a way to to get there. The way to go to your dreams and to learn going on. On the go. Let’s say it like that. People say, I can’t do that. And then I say, well, it’s an adventure. Now you can go and learn it and go step by step and make yourself better, more, more worth. Make yourself more. More of this world. But I don’t know I can’t, I don’t know. Well, that’s the moment. I have been a music teacher, and sometimes it took me most of the time of the of the class to get people to trust themselves and to just forget everything they were not capable of doing, but to just make music, just get that instrument and start making music, okay? You make mistakes. If I speak English, I make mistakes, but you still understand me. So if you just make music, it doesn’t matter. Just go on and on the way you will learn. That would be my hope. Well, that is normal in my world.

00:11:46
Sif: Yeah.

00:11:47
Frigga: Being on the road. Making the journey.

00:11:51
Soleil: Yeah.

00:11:51
Frigga: And everything you can learn on the journey. Instead of. Of only focusing on that goal at the result.

00:11:59
Soleil: But enjoying the goal just to go.

00:12:03
Frigga: Can I tell? Yes, I can tell this. I’m working with a friend of mine on on a new book, and that just popped up. And I’m still actually a bit astonished because it is her pictures and my poems. Uh, when that popped up, it was for.

00:12:23
Sif: What?

00:12:24
Frigga: Well, I can’t do that. I can’t do that. I can’t do that. And she had the same thought. But no, we’re going to do it. And when we talk the first time about it, we really talked about that. We are going on a journey together. And yes, that book will come, will be published somewhere. But for now it is having fun and being challenged by one another in in. How does this work? You know, in the here and now, having fun with what we are doing and enjoying it and what it gives us on this moment. And of course, in the back of my mind is that book. But that’s not here in the front. Front is the journey being challenged. Being excited. I got a picture, uh, just before we started recording, and I’m looking at it, and I have. Whoa. And then. Okay, I have to put it away.

00:13:23
Soleil: Yeah, because.

00:13:24
Sif: Otherwise I’m.

00:13:25
Frigga: In that picture, and I’m just listening to that picture. Which story is in there?

00:13:31
Sif: No, I.

00:13:33
Frigga: I have.

00:13:33
Sif: To.

00:13:37
Frigga: And so often it is about we sell the result. We sell. No, it’s about the journey. It’s about what you learn, what you experience, what does it tell you? And that can be so much fun.

00:13:51
Sif: Absolutely. And I think we’re seeing this quite a lot with the use of AI to create art, you know, images where we’re so focussed on the end result that we’ve lost the process and the joy of creating, which is something that is is striking me more and more these days. Just when you were talking, that’s what I was thinking about, the human nature of creating things and creativity and the pursuit towards that is something that we cannot, I hope, lose because something of human nature would be lost to in vital. But in our world, creativity will be cherished as a journey and not just a product.

00:14:34
Frigga: Yeah, yeah. And then I also get back immediately.

00:14:37
Soleil: In creativity for creativity you need you need your imagination. You need both. To imagine. How it can be different and how you would like it. Well, it’s important to you. Can you imagine, you know, when you go to school as a really young kids and there is way more time to play?

00:15:05
Sif: Mhm.

00:15:06
Frigga: Go outdoors for a walk. And there they teach you how to count instead of sitting behind a desk. And one and one is two. But you know how many trees do you see. And. There are countries in which there is it’s way more in that direction. Yeah. Because creativity is and making things is often so fun. And it has to be art. And no knitting something is creativity as well.

00:15:38
Sif: Mhm.

00:15:39
Soleil: That’s art too. I use creativity a lot just for surviving, and that can be very easy. If I am outside and I need to go on the sidewalk, there is a big bump. But if you look to the right and look to the left, you can see, oh, there is a little, little, uh, bullet thing up.

00:16:01
Sif: Mhm.

00:16:01
Soleil: And then I, I go there and I am on the sidewalk and everything is okay. But that’s creativity. Looking around being part of your of the surroundings and use what is possible. But it is not uh, not a good thing to do in this world because you should just do what, what you are asked to. And that’s one thing in my world would not exist. You only do things because you think it’s necessary, or it’s a good thing, or it’s something that you can understand to do. That means that that things will go wrong, because some tasks or some questions are not nice to answer. But then I hope that altogether we will be able to talk about it and find a way to do it anyway. But where was I going? It is about self responsibility and so on. Those roles where people are forced to think in one direction and try to solve the problems in that direction. This is how we always did it. This is how the the. Hi guys. Want us to go? This is what feels comfortable. And I think everyone has to make those decisions themselves. And then you can do it with a whole heart with all of your possibilities. And it’s much easier. I have a very challenging situation at my work. And there it is. When I say, well, let’s do it this way. But we used to do it is the first thing they say.

00:17:43
Soleil: And for me that’s, that’s disability. For me that is not being capable of looking forward. And it’s very difficult to get out of the comfort zone. Maybe you can tell your thought about that. How important is that comfort zone. And how can we stretch it up so that it’s life gets easier, or that you still feel heard and seen because, well, I’m out of my comfort zone all the time, being me and I. Sometimes I say to myself, you are allowed to just do something that you feel well and, and other people just pull that to themselves and don’t. You can’t get them out of it, and that makes them so, so incomplete in my eyes.

00:18:34
Sif: I know it’s interesting because as much as you hear that sentence of? We’ve always done it this way. Or, you know, we’re used to doing it that way. At the same time, businesses are very kind of the rhetoric, the narrative they love to play around is, oh, we don’t want you in your comfort zone. You know, it’s that stagnation. You know, we need to constantly be forward thinking, but the reality of it is that they’re quite rare to want to change or adapt to what’s happening around them. It’s like that weird kind of the business world, kind of like a paradox, I don’t know, I’m kind of glad that I’m not in a conventional office environment, because that I’m lucky enough to be able to work from home. I think businesses are also very sort of encapsulated, focussed on this idea of I don’t like to use the word but normal and, you know, because it’s, it’s the you constantly see on the news about like this inability to put in reasonable adjustments for people they don’t like to expand For anyone that doesn’t fit into the narrow box of what it means to be a worker for them. I guess what I’m trying to say is that businesses are very much a capitalist thing. They’re they’re a small part of our entire world, not our world, not the the, the better world. But they’re kind of what is wrong with this? Sounds very anti-business, and I’m just watching all my clients disappear. But it is. If there are products of the capitalist world that we’ve bought as like we’ve created as humanity, so am I just going off on a rant here about capitalism? I get what I’m.

00:20:13
Frigga: Wearing for.

00:20:14
Soleil: Maybe a bit.

00:20:15
Frigga: Though I can relate. It’s a toxic system. We live in the individualism. Do I pronounce that well?

00:20:24
Soleil: Yeah.

00:20:25
Frigga: Individualism the way it is today is separate us.

00:20:31

00:20:31
Frigga: And it’s not only in businesses that it’s the society, and I think that is one of the things we talk about and think about within Heathenry and Paganism, much more is about community. Oh, I don’t know where I want to go.

00:20:51
Sif: There’s a lot we can go with it like that.

00:20:53
Frigga: Exactly. But in our world, community spirit would be self evident. And what I said for years, I don’t want to go back to a weak culture. I want to move forward to a society where there is this balance between what you said so late. As people, we need one another.

00:21:19
Soleil: Mhm.

00:21:19
Frigga: And that there is enough space for, for us as individuals to be ourselves or how we want to call that, but we need one another And all these things also pop up to my mind because of talking about a comfort zone. If you are always only you know this individual, are you learning then that there is a different world with different opinions? And I think that we need to learn again how to feel uncomfortable.

00:21:56
Soleil: Mhm.

00:21:57
Frigga: I think I said that in the beginning life is not easy. Life is hard and feeling uncomfortable is okay. Yeah. Listening to somebody with a totally different opinion is getting to know another person. And I think that is these are things to are important to learn from a very young age. I mean, who said it. It it needs a village to raise a child.

00:22:21
Soleil: Mhm.

00:22:22
Frigga: So you need the input of of all kind of people, not only your father and mother and your, your grandparents, your own son but the neighbours and in school. Yeah, that world can be scary and and can be fun. All these things that that and but it’s okay to feel uncomfortable.

00:22:42
Soleil:: Yeah. But still, I think what happens here is that we say, well you are uncomfortable. And so we give a role to somebody. I say you are comfortable because the, the history that I know of you makes me make the assumption that that must be uncomfortable. So I know that you are very unhappy and that’s a that’s something else. You put a person in a place that no one should be should be. If you are uncomfortable, it is important that you know where you are and that you know that there is, well, not a possibility to get out, but that people do still, uh, see you and hear you and give you all the credits that you need it because of you, because of why you feel uncomfortable and not why people think you are.

00:23:38
Frigga: Mhm.

00:23:39
Soleil: I have a lot of that in my life at some point. Just a little anecdote. At some point I’m sitting in the garden. It’s nice weather and there is this path besides my house and a man is walking there enjoying himself. And we start talking and he tells me he’s going for a holiday very soon and he’s booked it, and it’s in a nice place. And. And then he looks at me, I go up, I go down, and he makes this sigh and he says, oh, I’m so sorry, you can’t go for holidays. And I have travelled all over the world. There is not, well, just Australia is the place I’ve not been all the other continents I’ve been. I’ve done my thing. I’ve gone on safari. I’ve been in Were everywhere, nearly everywhere. But he he could not place himself in my situation. So he made this statement that I cannot go on holidays. And that makes me very poor person. And I looked at him and I thought, well, but, you know, I give you this, you are much more poor than I am, and I’m going to let you there. I did not say anything about it. Usually I would like to just call myself. I am so good. I can’t do this, I do that.

00:25:04
Frigga: No, I’m.

00:25:04
Soleil: Not doing that less all the time, by the way, because I do not need to teach them. I do not need to show them how I am and what I am capable of that don’t see it well, go to somebody else. But that kind of comfort downs and personal worth. I still don’t know the right way to say that, but it’s very important that you are seen for who you are and who you try to be, because that’s worth too. In my world, we would talk about his holiday and he would like to talk about that because he feels that that’s important for him and he would not have any problems with me.

00:25:48
Frigga: Mhm.

00:25:49
Soleil: And if he’s an empathic person he would say and how do you do that. But it’s not necessary.

00:25:56
Frigga: Yeah. Empathy. And is that empathy. If you can imagine or try to imagine how it is for somebody else.

00:26:05
Sif: Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:06
Soleil: The trying is important.

00:26:08
Frigga: Yeah. The trying is important because you have to realise that you never can.

00:26:12
Soleil: But yes.

00:26:13
Frigga: Sometimes the hardest small things in your own experience, which you can relate to. Oh, I’m getting back to imagination. Can you imagine that somebody in a wheelchair can travel around the world. Why not?

00:26:30
Soleil: Well, I don’t know. Why not.

00:26:33
Sif: Please.

00:26:36
Soleil: To be very clear that I want to. And that I can. At some points when I go for flying, I always have to be very, very, very clear that it is possible and I’m going to do it and that the assistance is going to help me in a way that is acceptable for me, because I am not a package.

00:26:58
Sif: Oh yeah.

00:26:59
Frigga: Yeah. That’s interesting. I will put you on the train instead. I will help you in the train.

00:27:07
Soleil: Exactly. About empathy.

00:27:10
Sif: Yeah.

00:27:11
Frigga: I mean, what I want to touch back on just a little bit is this idea of difficulty. I think when people imagine their kind of ideal world, they imagine one without difficulty. I think it might be a bit strange for some people to be like, when? When will you have the imagination to create an entire world? Why would you include challenges? But I think I would agree with the general consensus here that I think it’s important not in terms of devaluing a person in any way, but maybe, I don’t know, maybe I’ve read too many fictional books, but the idea of challenge and overcoming it and growing as people rather than, I guess, bear with me for a second, just sort of. Have you watched the Pixar movie Wall-E? It’s the robot that lives on the the the the Earth’s basically been polluted, and it’s piles high and high of rubbish. And people have basically flying around on this spaceship away from Earth, and they’ve lost what it means to be human and that connection with Earth. And they basically have everything that they could ever want. You know, they but it’s all quite soulless. It’s like they’re just sitting in chairs and they’re just being like, they can just watch TV and like, all day. And it’s that idea of what does it mean to be human and how important nature is in terms of grounding us and all of that. But it’s those kind of weird connections of like in my head that I’m making between actually, no, the ideal world wouldn’t be one where we just have every need catered for. And so that’s something I’ve just thought about, just listening and having that realisation that it shouldn’t be completely easy, you know. But yeah. Sorry. As we were.

00:29:05
Soleil: No no no no. That’s I think what I was talking about. And so late in her way as well, it is for me. It’s not about a I ideal word in the sense of that there is no illness anymore.

00:29:20
Sif: Mhm.

00:29:20
Frigga: Because it is life on earth and the planet will not change. It is what it is, but it is. And that’s the interesting distinction we make between the planet and when we talk about our world. Because when we talk about our world, what we mean is, is the world we as humans create for ourselves, and that’s that we can shape. And indeed, you can only look at the bigger picture and wait for the toxic system to change. That’s not going to happen overnight. And it’s looking at the smaller your own life and who you are and who you want again, to see the world, but then live it. It’s not a future. Of course, we talk also about the future, about how it can be. But there are plenty of things we can live today. And that is looking at ourselves, how we think, how we act, the language we use. Because I will get back that. the language is so important. I’m thinking about the last couple of days. Is is the language used in in health care?

00:30:34
Sif: Mhm.

00:30:35
Frigga: And how a lot of the language of physicians and nurses and therapists, but maybe a bit of focus on, on doctors is to keep you small. It’s about power dynamics. Yeah. I can’t say that in English because if you use May in English is not a definition giving somebody permission. But the Dutch verb morgen is about giving permission. And I went to a clinic a couple of days ago, and I paraphrased it in English because I can’t say it in Dutch, as they constantly gave me permission to sit down and gave me permission. After the test, they gave me permission to contact my GP for the results. And this way of thinking, of thinking from the power dynamics that I don’t even think, they are realised that they are in a power position and I don’t realise the language and what pissed me off the most. They ask me and I don’t know how you express that in English, but in Dutch they use your your messages.

00:31:53
Sif: Nam first name?

00:31:55
Frigga: Yeah, but first name is excluding people who are adopted. But they asked for the name you had as a girl.

00:32:04
Soleil: Before you marry.

00:32:05
Frigga: Yeah. So they assume.

00:32:07
Sif: Oh, the maiden name.

00:32:09
Frigga: That as a woman, you are married. You are married to a man and you use his last name. So when I got that was the second time in one week’s time. So she asked me that question and I was just looking at her and I didn’t say anything. And then you, you know, if you don’t respond properly as a patient who is grateful and not able to speak up for themselves, just look at them and then you feel that they start feeling uncomfortable because this is different. And then I said to her, I will not answer this question. When you ask me what my name is, which is in the official, uh.

00:33:03
Soleil: Your citizen’s registration.

00:33:05
Frigga: Yes, something like that. If you ask me for that, I will answer the question. But that was totally beyond her comfort zone.

00:33:20
Soleil: You know what I think happens in that case? In those cases, because they go everywhere, it is somebody that is at the bottom of this hierarchical, hierarchical.

00:33:32
Frigga: Higher hierarchy.

00:33:34
Soleil: That’s exactly. And such a person is asked to do the inquiry. They have no idea. And they they don’t have any possibilities to change anything. They just have to do. I ask you this, you do that. Don’t think people are not of their own thinking. So they’re going to do that that way.

00:33:55
Sif: Mhm.

00:33:56
Soleil: What’s your name. What’s your birth date. What. Pop pop pop pop pop. The possibility that there is something different does not exist. And if there is a person, a patient, a client or whatever that has that is different, it has to be slaughtered because that is not okay. That gives a problem and that makes it interesting because Seph said, I hope it’s not necessary that we are just sitting and watching television and there is no problem, no challenge anymore because, well, that is very important in our lives. People are really trying to get there to lose their humanity and just follow rules and just what they are said to do. Lots of religions work like that. If you just do what I want you to do, you will be okay and they will never get there. So I know a Frigga that you are pissed, but in it, somewhere deep in me there is this, this feeling of how do you say that in English? I made a lighter.

00:35:06
Frigga: Empathy of feeling sympathetic. Empathy? No, not not pathetic.

00:35:12
Soleil: Some kind of.

00:35:14
Sif: Yeah.

00:35:15
Soleil: Well, I think these people are more to take care of because they have sunk so far that I don’t know anymore where they are in their lives, in their world. They are just ants working for the hive.

00:35:32
Frigga: What you said earlier about roles, the roles you expect to play and knowing your place. And that is something which is for centuries forced upon us. Knowing your place.

00:35:46
Soleil: Yeah. And I don’t know my place.

00:35:49
Sif: Know exactly where is it?

00:35:51
Frigga: That’s our institutionalised ways of thinking, which most people are not aware of. And I think change starts from, from not from top down, but from bottom up. And you need people who open up and say these things and address these things. And that’s not easy because often what you said, if you, you don’t know your place and you don’t play the role of the the the grateful patient. I started to hate the word patient even more and more. Activist bringers of change mostly are not appreciated, at least not at first. Because what is that saying? More or less, first day they ridicule you and then slowly that is changing into put you on a pedestal. So you need activists. You need people who from the bottom who speak up for themselves. And if I do these things, I don’t only speak up for myself, because if if I feel this way with questions like that, other people or a lot of people maybe are not aware of it, but there will be people who realise what the system does and what they are not, maybe not capable of speaking up.

00:37:11
Soleil: It is. It is possible to follow.

00:37:14
Sif: Yeah.

00:37:15
Soleil: So it’s not that we say you have to be an activist. You can also just follow up or just go say, oh, that’s what I like. Let’s just go that same way. But there’s something else. Somebody said, you have to live your own the life that we want to create.

00:37:31
Sif: Mhm.

00:37:32
Soleil: For me inclusivity, responsibility, diversity of course. But also to be how do you say that to respect people in a real way. Not. Oh you have done a lot because and I can’t imagine how this works. So now I respect, you know, the real respect of I know who you are. I respect that you are. You are. This is not really going where I want to go. I notice in my work is that I am a manager, somebody who is in the lead with a disability, and I want to be respected for what I do, and I’m not helping me at all. I don’t know if you all know that little little chick that says, oh, everybody has to help me because I’m so small and nobody, nobody can help me. And the smallest one here and will be making himself more small for herself. And. But I’m just who I am despite or even with or whatever, who I am. And I have co-workers and they work with, with other people. They have to coach other people to facilitate other people. And these people can be really killing me at all. They can say, oh, you have to do everything for me because I’m so poor. I am so in discomfort. I am so well, people are all against me. So you have to do everything for me. And in the beginning my co-workers said, I don’t know how to do with that. I don’t know how to work. And now I’m starting after two years. I’m starting to notice that some of them have found a kind of balance in that. If you want me to facilitate a coach, you have to be yourself. And don’t gloat. Is that a word on how how poor you are? How discomfort and. Well, and that felt very good when I not noticed that because it’s just who I am. I don’t do anything for it. It’s just who I am. And other people pick that up and help the next people to be responsible, to come up for themselves. And don’t just sit in the corner and win. All sad and patient is about patience. I always try to to remember that and but patience is something that I can generate. They can’t make me be patient.

00:40:09
Frigga: Oh, I hate my brain. Something popped up and it’s gone again.

00:40:15
Sif: You look like you have thoughts.

00:40:17
Frigga: Yeah. Somewhere fake in the back.

00:40:19
Sif: Behind.

00:40:20
Frigga: Behind the.

00:40:21
Sif: Mist.

00:40:22
Frigga: Behind the.

00:40:22
Sif: Fog.

00:40:24
Frigga: There’s a lot going on. I can’t get there.

00:40:30
Sif: I thought it was interesting that I just took off on a slight tangent here about Dutch word for may being permission. Like there’s a permission aspect because obviously you probably know this in English. It’s more about giving you the option to. But I’ve never really thought about it as someone is allowing you to do something. I thought that that’s an interesting nuance that I’ve never really thought of before.

00:40:53
Frigga: Yeah.

00:40:54
Soleil: Yeah, I looked it up this morning because I tried to write something about the Dutch verb moron, and I had to look it up in English because I realised that I use May. You may do this and you may do that. And then I did find out this, this nuance that in English it’s not. It’s indeed about giving possibilities instead of giving permission.

00:41:19
Sif: Usually it has something negative in it. If you don’t do what I want, you may do something else.

00:41:25
Frigga: People don’t realise, at least in Dutch, that that you may sit down. You must consider. It’s about giving permission. It’s not a neutral language. These if you want to sit down. I don’t know how to phrase that in English language sensitivity.

00:41:42
Sif: Insensitive. No.

00:41:44
Frigga: No, it’s both fun and sometimes it’s horrible. But yeah, all these ways of thinking are so institutionalised that we. I said that before. I’m repeating myself that we don’t realise it. And we have to, in my opinion, become aware of all these structures I think partly bring about change. Oh, and now I realised about what was my previous thought.

00:42:13
Sif: Maybe I can.

00:42:14
Frigga: Stick onto it. And now I’ve lost.

00:42:16
Sif: What I was talking about.

00:42:20
Frigga: Um. We’re talking about may permissions, word choice, people not realising about the words they use and institutionalisation.

00:42:32
Soleil: Yeah.

00:42:33
Frigga: Yeah. And this whole structures which are behind them, a set also before for many centuries and change isn’t it needs time to become aware of things. Its work, its hard working to think about these things. And yeah, there was also something vaguely in my mind when I heard you talk a bit earlier in our world, and it’s not forcing our world on people, I think. Well, if I may speak in we is way more Worlds where differences diversity exists, and things may be uncomfortable because that culture might be you don’t understand things, but it all can be there.

00:43:20
Soleil: Absolutely. I think it’s important that we realise that in our world, it is okay to be uncomfortable if somebody is different than you expect, and then you say, whoa, you are different to me. Can we talk about it? Or would you like to tell something about it that things are open to talk about? I learned myself to be honest and vulnerable. If something happens that I do not understand immediately. And maybe it is, um, it’s a little dramatic. And then I say, I just don’t know what to say at the moment. And that opens a lot, because I’m not saying something stupid because that’s the first thing you do in such a situation. And the other one can help me to to focus on what’s really important, and just such a silly small thing makes it so easy to acknowledge that somebody is different, that that there is diversity. And people like that are not different because they’re not always. Some people just don’t want to show that they are different. And that’s also very well. But it’s not that I want to pull everybody into my picture. We are talking about our world. The moment that we talk about it, it changes and that’s good. That’s exactly what we want. As long as there are enough people that are working to power and being mighty and so on, because there has to be a place in the room for everybody. There are things that I do not want there. We have to I have to find a way to to work with them.

00:44:56
Frigga: And then pops up from structure structures.

00:45:01
Soleil: Oh.

00:45:01
Frigga: How to pronounce that in English. So theocracy mostly it’s talked about from from business perspective, but I think you can employ it in many more situations, which is not a hierarchy where there is a CEO and there are managers, you know, and then going down, but it is flat.

00:45:24
Soleil: Yeah.

00:45:24
Frigga: And it works with circles. And I joined Extinction Rebellion a couple of years for a while. And there I first heard about that. And, and they work in that way. And it’s so fascinating because it is way more focussed to enable everyone’s voice instead of the ones who know or easily talk. But there is, yeah, all kind of circles. And there is this one coordination circle who is some kind of spider in the web. So to keep oversight and keep an eye on the benign process and that there is interaction between the different circles. So there is a circle for creating come up with ideas and there is a circle of finance and there is a circle. But it makes things possible to say it’s an easy ways, but also the decision making. And we talked about deep democracy recently. So that’s called it’s also ways to refine democracy. So the whole meeting form you don’t talk about a chair but about a facilitator. And a facilitator is just, you know, making sure that everybody gets their moment is to speak and not have to wait. It’s very more, you know, raising your finger that you want to say something. And the facilitator keeps an eye. So you sit way more relaxed because you know, that’s, you know, you get your moments to share things. And they work with hand signs more than just raising your finger that you want to have. But, but but also to to express that you agree with it or not or. And what I really liked was the temperature check. But the temperature check is if you have discussed a subject in a very quick way to get an impression how different people feel about it. And if you agree, you you raise your hands up and you move them. I think it’s it’s kind of way a plot in in in sign language. Yes. That means that you agree with it. And if you if you feel doubt, you put your hands straight and you wiggle the same way. And if you don’t agree, you put your hands down and you wiggle them. And it means that you only have to look around the room or the circle you’re sitting in, and it gives you an impression. Instead of everybody has to say, I don’t like it. Or you have a, you know, an impression about how people feel, and then you can pay attention to why people doubt or why they really don’t like it. And it’s also working with consensus, which means that I don’t have to agree with things, but that can come a moment that I say, okay, you have my consensus, but it’s it’s way more about, yeah, enabling everybody’s everybody’s voice and listen to people, really listen to people. And I will not go into the the decision making because that is is so complex. It’s very fascinating. Deep democracy is book. It’s written in Dutch. It’s called deep Democracy. But the subtitle is The Wisdom of the minority.

00:48:47
Soleil: Mhm.

00:48:48
Frigga: And I really like that because it is also a way of working again said that everybody gets their chance to speak themselves out and it is so often people might be shy. Might be introvert. All these kind of things, neurodivergent, traumatised, whatever they are. Can be so much plays a role in communicating and in meetings. And there is more time. And at first it looks like that it takes more time. But in the end, I think it’s not really good.

00:49:23
Soleil: When you make a decision, everybody has to go for it. And if you do it quick, in a normal way of democracy, you just take votes. Well, there is a 49% or or for 51, there’s still 49 people that are equal percent that are against it. You have to get those people motivated to do it anyway. And if you take this kind of democracy of working together with everybody, it is in Dutch which is carried by everyone. It’s going to work because every everybody has chosen to do it in a way, more or less. But everybody’s hurt. Everybody has given their their consent.

00:50:05
Sif: Yeah.

00:50:05
Frigga: And the being hurt that you really get your moment to express why you don’t like it. And that’s why I say what I like about consent doesn’t mean that I totally agree with it. I might still have thoughts about it, but one of the things that fascinated me in that book, because she gives a couple of examples where only this expression meant that people could give their consent, and that sometimes can be something totally unexpected, and maybe actually that it has nothing to do with what it is about. But that’s on their mind and that’s it’s important for them.

00:50:45
Soleil: I work like this, and at the end I just look at the people that had some some thoughts and I say, well, in this way, can we go on.

00:50:54
Sif: Mhm.

00:50:54
Soleil: And then they usually say yes, but that there is something in there in their way of doing that, I think, why am I asked? Why am I asked if I am concerned with it? And then I think, well, I did it right. You are heard people have to learn to work this way.

00:51:15
Frigga: Yeah, because it’s a different way of thinking. And it’s not the top down. But but it’s really way more about equity. And it’s, it’s again, it’s not about being 100% on the same level or agreeing for 100%. But there is this this. Yeah. Consensus. I had to learn really the difference between compromise and consent, because in the Netherlands it’s all about compromise.

00:51:43
Sif: Mhm.

00:51:43
Frigga: And that’s something really different because then it can be you know. Oh okay. Can we keep a little bit away. And oh if we skip that then what is left then and with consent. It is way more often that the original idea is still there.

00:52:02
Soleil: Our world’s children would work with this way of democracy. From very, very young, in schools, even when they are in kindergarten. You already can use this way for working together. Well, it will take a lot of effort to have all those teachers that think that they are the king of the of the classroom to get them in the new roles. But I think if we educate a new generation in this way of thinking, the world would be much easier.

00:52:37
Sif: Yes.

00:52:38
Soleil: Not that we know problems. No. There will be hard, hard discussions, but it would have much more power.

00:52:47
Frigga: But if everything would be easy and only, you know, peace and white light shit, it It would be boring.

00:52:56
Soleil: That’s why I don’t want to go to heaven. Because it must.

00:53:00
Sif: Be.

00:53:00
Soleil: So boring there.

00:53:02
Frigga: But we said it before. We’re not talking about some kind of heaven. We talk way more about reality.

00:53:10
Sif: Yes.

00:53:11
Frigga: If children in school really learn the difference between discussion, debate, and dialogue, and I don’t think that it is is a good thing to learn. Children debate. But I think truly debate good debate. In my opinion. You need to listen to what the others say. Really listen to what the others say and not only say, oh, you’re stupid and your ideas are wrong. No, come with really arguments. Why? Why you think it can be different or it should be in a different way. And dialogue is also about listening, but in dialogue, it’s way more to put your own ways of thinking, maybe a little bit to the background for the moment of the dialogue, to listen to what others say and then you get back. Maybe that can be uncomfortable what another person is telling. But should you mouse just listen?

00:54:10
Sif: I’d say I, I think I’ve watched too many YouTube debates, but they’ve never. It always seems to be bad faith, and it’s never about convincing the other person. It’s always about winning some sort of intellectual competition. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone change their mind after a debate, you know, that I’ve seen on like, YouTube. So I like this idea of discussion rather than trying to force your will upon someone from like smart speech choices or whatnot.

00:54:38
Frigga: Indeed, the debate is about winning again. Then there is this constant rat race of you need to win. You need to be the best instead of you are who you are. Okay, I’m lost again.

00:54:56
Frigga: Difference between dialogue and discussion. Discussion is what we are doing now. Or maybe it’s already a bit more going dialogue at the aim of dialogue, to get to know one another, or to see and to hear another person, and not with the the outcome that you change your mind. But it might be.

00:55:19
Frigga: Think different about situations or that a person is not that scary.

00:55:26
Soleil: It might make you more wise if you listen to the other, especially when it is somebody of whom I expect that it is not what I want, even maybe this comfortable for me, it still is worth to listen very well so that I can follow that thought as far as possible and find places in that thought that might make it logical for that person to think like that, so that I understand him better. And when we are still debating, I can find some point where I can log on and change that. That way of thinking. But in both cases, we have to listen carefully and to accept the thoughts that are very uncomfortable for me are wrong even. And it gives opportunities to to understand the other one and or to say, well, this is not my way of thinking because that’s what I, what I call wisdom.

00:56:28
Sif: Yeah.

00:56:28
Frigga: And what also.

00:56:30
Sif: Pops.

00:56:30
Frigga: Up to mind is, is educate people in our children, in that you can change your opinion that it is not stupid or whatever. No, it is wisdom and it shares, in my opinion, strength. I mean, my opinion is based on what I know on this moment.

00:56:51
Sif: Yeah.

00:56:52
Frigga: One of you can say something in the next couple of of seconds. And that is, I think, what you, in your own way, expresses soul that makes me think and that that gives me information that I didn’t have. And then. Okay. But I thought it was that way. But it is maybe different and it can be a little tiny bit different than it can be completely different. But I think it’s important to do, you say educate children or teach people both. Sometimes I don’t know the difference to teach children that as well, because there are people for whom it’s very difficult to change their opinion. And I think if these things are told to you from a young age onward, that at least it exists. If I realise how much I had to find out myself in my life, and then I get back, I said it before I wished I had somebody in my life who taught me these things at a young age. That would have made a hell of a difference.

00:57:52
Sif: Yeah, there are many thoughts.

00:57:55
Frigga: Oh, yes.

00:57:56
Soleil: It’s a big world, you know.

00:57:58
Frigga: Mhm.

00:57:59
Sif: Oh let’s start.

00:58:02
Frigga: Oh and also something I want to mention. I read this this morning and I found it so interesting. It was on a page about trauma. And one of the things was how you can learn to deal with negative thoughts and positive thoughts.

00:58:17
Soleil: Mhm.

00:58:18
Frigga: And I don’t like that division in negative and positive because why are my thoughts negative.

00:58:25
Soleil: Mhm.

00:58:26
Frigga: If I’m afraid or whatever. It’s not negative thoughts. And then further on in the same text they talked about helping thoughts and not helping thoughts. That is a different way of thinking because there is no value about your thoughts.

00:58:44
Soleil: Mhm.

00:58:44
Frigga: Feeling uncomfortable being angry that are negative thoughts? No. I even read years ago somewhere that feelings of mourning were labelled as negative feelings.

00:58:58
Sif: Oh, that’s a slippery slope.

00:59:01
Frigga: And this was in a care facility. Helping thoughts are not helping thoughts. That feels so much different because it isn’t stated.

00:59:11
Soleil: That your.

00:59:12
Frigga: Thoughts are negative or bad. No. Are your thoughts helping you or not? That feels so different.

00:59:19
Soleil: Very beautiful way of explaining it. Yeah, and I follow you in it. Yes it is when when I talk to people that are sad or angry and I just addressed that. People think that it’s difficult, difficult or wrong. Sometimes I say to people, well, you are angry. You know, I have this pile of plates. If you need to throw them, just say so. at that moment, the anger always goes down because they have to laugh. But it’s also that they think, what? I am allowed to be angry. And I had to learn that myself. I remember a moment in my life that I had lots of problems with the just just the family just being together. There were all kinds of things that I hated, and I couldn’t go because I lived there in that house and I had no place to go. And at some moment it was sad. Don’t be angry or don’t show your emotions. No, don’t show your feelings because we don’t do that. And at that moment I thought, well, you can you can think anything you like, but this is a no go for me. So I turned around, went to my room, close the door, and made a very big hole in it. And that was such a good feeling to do that. I still remember that as go for your feelings. Go for your emotions. They they are good anyway. That’s an energy that you have to do something about.

01:00:52
Sif: Yeah. I mean, there’s.

01:00:53
Frigga: Nothing wrong or negative about by being angry.

01:00:56
Sif: No, it’s the.

01:00:58
Frigga: Way you express it that maybe.

01:01:02
Soleil: You can work on that. But first you have to acknowledge I’m angry. What am I going to do with.

01:01:09
Sif: Yeah.

01:01:09
Frigga: So in our world, we would learn that kind of thing from a young age. That anger is okay. That there are no in that way. No negative. Not thinking about negative and positive. But it’s so black and white. And maybe that’s also because of my language sensitivity again. But also I have to be aware. I think it’s partly due to my autism that I don’t start thinking in black and white, that I have to realise that there is a lot of colours in between.

01:01:42
Soleil: Good and wrong. This is good. And this is wrong. Yeah. And then I always think about those two countries that go into war. And they’re both at the side of the place where that will happen. I think of knights and horses. And so that’s easier. And then they both have this religious leader that says, well, God isn’t on our side and we.

01:02:07
Sif: Are.

01:02:07
Soleil: We are doing this. And, and I think, okay, who is saying that you are right.

01:02:13
Sif: Mhm.

01:02:15
Soleil: You might be wrong but well you are going to do something very with a lot of impact on life. And are you really sure you are right. Because the other party is also very right. So who is righter than the other. And well that is for me some kind of paradoxical thinking which I really like to do. And then I think, well, maybe there is no right and wrong. This moment, I think this is right in that moment. I think that is right. And I have to accept that I might be wrong, even if I don’t want to be. Or I think I’m not. That gives me a lot of room in my in my life and in my thoughts. There is morality in me that I try to keep there.

01:03:04
Frigga: What I said. All this grey scales between black and white complies also to good and Rome, or this, this good and evil. And to me in Heathenry there is way more. Yeah, there is good and there is bad, but not not in this complete, strict ways. And an example I always use is winter and snow and ice.

01:03:27
Sif: Mhm.

01:03:27
Frigga: We had a little bit of winter. We had some snow and ice.

01:03:31
Sif: And you know when it.

01:03:33
Frigga: Starts.

01:03:33
Sif: Snowing.

01:03:33
Frigga: And start freezing. I mean in the Netherlands you’ll get this, this cheerful and this and enthusiasm. Oh, we can skate. And even if it’s one degrees below zero that we can have an l state of thought. You know, this big, uh, skating tour up, up in the north, which is a famous tradition. This this whole feeling of of cheer. But if there comes more snow and it’s getting colder and it holds on, then suddenly what we were so happy about because then we bump into to the the difficulties. I mean, me with my mobility scooter, it was horrible to drive through the snow. I have to stay more indoors and it’s not a nice feeling. Can I go out and do I get there or is it too slippery and or is there too much snow? Do I have to return home? Can I do my shopping? So that’s for me is always a good example of realising that that something which can be good on one moment. And I think you said it so like can be not good at the next moment. And also something I want to address with getting back to to language I guess, is that from a young age you learn that we communicate in different ways. I had to figure that out again, myself and so many things. And now due to the knowledge about neurodivergent and that kind of stuff, I’m more ways to express these things. But I always realised for me, I always say, you need to learn that thing.

01:05:10
Soleil: Yeah, I know, I’m thinking I’m getting tired.

01:05:14
Frigga: You know, when you buy a device, you get this paper which explains the device. How do you express it in English? Uh.

01:05:22
Sif: Sit there. Okay. Carry on. I’ll just. I’ll. I’ll pick it up from context.

01:05:27
Frigga: I always said I.

01:05:28
Soleil: Need to learn how how a person works, how they think, and not not into details, but at least gets a bit of a feeling about it. Because if I use that word, if I phrase it in that way, a person might look at me for I don’t understand you, and I know that from myself. And if it’s phrased in a slightly different way. Oh, do you mean that? A simple way is. People are more. Their brains are more visual.

01:06:00
Sif: Mhm. Yeah.

01:06:01
Frigga: Or more hearing. So if you, if you say to a person who is way more official wired and you say listen to me, they might not respond or respond less. If you ask them could you please have a look at my point of view. Hmm. They suddenly. Oh yeah, of course. And it’s all kind of this tiny little ways. And what I’m thinking about lately is, is that not only speaking, uh, is the perfect way of communication, but that’s writing can be a very perfect way of expressing yourself. And of course, it’s known that that for autistic people there are those who are called non-verbal.

01:06:48
Soleil: Mhm.

01:06:49
Frigga: I had somebody who’s explicitly said I’m not speaking. I’ve been wondering could be sign language.

01:06:56
Sif: Mhm.

01:06:57
Frigga: A different way because then they are not forced in speaking. Or is it the most comfortable indeed using that tablet. I mean how wonderful would it be if as little kids we would learn sign language. Mhm.

01:07:12
Soleil: Would be very important I think because it makes you think about how to, how to use your emotions and how to, how to listen by looking. Mhm. I think every in school the whole I don’t know when, but there must be a moment that all children learn sign language just for their own education. And the second thing is that they can understand they’re their deaf neighbour. Yes, please.

01:07:41
Frigga: I might have thought that in the previous we had that was in the news a couple of weeks ago, if I recall it correctly, in a small town up north, there was a kid who is deaf and there was something about it. Children could wish it. It might be Santa Claus or Christmas or something. And he mentioned something about sign language and be able to, to talk with, with other people and some people in the village. Okay. We’re going to do that. So they gave a course sign language, at least the basics that if they would bump into the little one, that they could say hello to him. And how are you? And people enjoyed it. So another course was planned and then. Isn’t that marvellous?

01:08:28
Soleil: It’s just another language. So sign language is something about freedom for me. This gift gives a lot of people, not just people with hearing problems, the chance to be themselves and to to use communication in their own way. Just let this child use this his hands because he has ADHD or whatever, and it’s more comfortable for the child to move. Mhm.

01:09:00
Frigga: Yes. You know, I really get this smile on my face thinking about our world.

01:09:08
Soleil: Well I do not want it to be a refuge. I just want to, to be, uh, possible for everybody to come.

01:09:15
Frigga: Yes.

01:09:15
Soleil: Yes.

01:09:16
Frigga: We are talking already.

01:09:18
Soleil: For a long time.

01:09:21
Frigga: 1.5 hours. So I think we should try to get an end to this.

01:09:27
Sif: Okay.

01:09:28
Soleil: We can’t.

01:09:29
Frigga: No, no we can’t. Because things keep popping up in my brain. Oh, dad did. Oh, dad, when I said we have this. Opportunities around the fire to tell our stories and to listen to the stories of other people.

01:09:47
Sif: Mhm.

01:09:48
Frigga: Because then we can create together with all different kinds of inputs.

01:09:54
Sif: Oh, dear. My words have not been working today. I don’t know about you two. Oh but yeah, it’s I guess for me. Ultimately this entire episode gives me a little bit of hope. I hope that whoever’s listening to this also feels a bit more hopeful that the world can be a better place, a more inclusive place, a more accessible place, a more empathetic place, and that we’re not we’re not doomed to follow this path as it seems to be going for forever. There are activists or people that have this hope for a better future than the world can be better. I think that’s hopefully everyone needed to hear today. So a little bit of a little bit of optimism.

01:10:41
Soleil: I want to see it as realism because it can be done and you don’t have to make it. We don’t have to finish it. It’s just that we keep thinking, keep telling stories about that fire, and know that this is a possibility that everybody is seeing, everybody is heard, and everybody knows that he exists for worth.

01:11:06
Sif: There we go.

01:11:08
Soleil: Yeah.

01:11:09
Frigga: I think that our wonderful final words for this episode.

01:11:13
Sif: Yeah, that was a really good ending. But yeah. Thank you for listening, everyone. That’s been episode [34] and I have been Sif. We have Frigga.

01:11:24
Frigga: Bye bye.

01:11:26
Sif: And solo.

01:11:27
Soleil: Bye bye.

01:11:28
Sif: Thank you for listening.