00:00:09
Sif: Hello and welcome to the Wyrd Thing podcast. This is episode 30. My name is Sif and I am one of the hosts for this episode. But before I introduce my co-host, I’d like to introduce the guest for this episode, chair of Asatru UK. Godi of Essex and Hearts kindred and someone I’ve never met before in my life. I absolutely do not consider him a treasured friend and who I am in no way honoured to know. Seriously, this man has done some incredible work in promoting inclusive Heathenry in the UK and being a personal inspiration to me. Mr. Jack Hudson.
00:00:39
Jack: Hello. Glad to be here. That was a very nice introduction.
00:00:45
Sif: Oh, amazing. I didn’t forget anything, did I?
00:00:50
Jack: Uh, I’m very tall.
00:00:51
Sif: Yes. Colossal. Some might say.
00:00:56
Jack: Yeah.
00:00:58
Frigga: Like a giant.
00:01:00
Sif: And here’s my co-host Frigga, over to you.
00:01:04
Frigga: Thank you. The subject of this episode has fascinated me since my teenage years. I’ve always found a taste and smell of alcohol rather unpleasant. Although I tried to adjust and learn to drink it, I only got drunk once. At the age of 14, I found that absolutely dreadful and had a terrible hangover the next day. Nothing to be proud of. I was about 16, I believe, when I decided to stop drinking alcohol altogether, and that quite made me an outsider, as I was nearly always the only one. The fact that I don’t drink. Apart from perhaps a sip of meat or beer during a ritual isn’t due to some conviction, like teetotal ism, but rather because, as I mentioned, I simply can’t stand a taste of it. Often I wished it were different. A glass of wine to help me unwind. Sounds quite appealing. At the same time, I know it’s my lifeline, for otherwise I would have been an alcoholic for years. Drowning my sorrows in a drink. By all means. I certainly understand that for many people, enjoying a fine glass of wine, a sophisticated whiskey or a craft beer can be particularly pleasant experience. The ritual of drinking together and the relaxing effect of it can truly be enjoyable. Yet, I hope this episode can contribute to raising awareness that the issue of alcohol consumption deserves particular attention. If we claim to be inclusive as a person, a group, as a community, then we must acknowledge that alcohol can be a genuine concern for some individuals as organization. We ought to be mindful of this when planning gatherings. Before I hand over to Jack. I’d like to clarify a few terms. Being both autistic and language sensitive, I often need to examine the meaning of words before engaging in discussion like this. And it becomes even more important when I express myself in a language other than my mother tongue. So before discussing the subject of this episode, alcohol, whether to drink it or not. The reasons behind it and everything related. Here’s a bit about the difference between being teetotal versus simply not drinking. Being teetotal means choosing to abstain from alcohol entirely, often for personal, religious, or ethical reasons. It Implies a deliberate lifestyle choice rather than a necessity. In contrast, someone who avoids alcohol due to health issues, medication or past alcohol dependence would typically just say I don’t drink or I’m sober. Those recovering from alcoholism are more likely to describe themselves as in recovery rather than teetotal, as the latter suggests a voluntarily commitment rather than a medical or a personal necessity. There’s a great deal to cover on this topic, Jack. Perhaps you could start by telling us a bit about the history of alcohol and how it has been used throughout the ages.
00:04:46
Jack: The history of alcohol is expansive, to say the least. It starts, really, for human consumption about 9000 years ago in ancient China. That’s the the earliest times that they’ve been able to find either archaeological evidence of a brewing process. And it starts with, uh, like a rice, a rice wine type creation. Um, but where alcohol really takes off is in ancient Mesopotamia, about 7000 years ago, about 5000 BC. And that’s when they they started to create what we would call the closest thing we call it would be beer. And then where it becomes most prominent in history is, is the dawn of alcohol in Europe really? Um, and the drinking cultures that have grown from there. We know that the Celts were creating, beers and ciders and using berries, implementing them, and it was refined a lot by the, the Romans and the Greeks. They they really went in for wine in a big way. But mead had really stayed in, in central and northern Europe in a big way at that time as well. Uh, it just wasn’t, I would submit, probably as easy to mass produce as wine is. And from from that, we’ve obviously then we reach a period in time where, I guess you would probably call it industrialization in the Roman era, where vineyards become really, really prominent. And then ale starts to become a big thing as well, when peasant classes would be drinking ale. And, um, I know we’ve talked before about Ale’s availability as a cleaner drinking source, sort of river water, and that takes us through to the medieval ages, when we start to get a great diversity in different drinks and they become a status thing as well. So the upper classes would be drinking status drinks, such as wine that they would import from the warmer climates that could grow the grapes to do so, and ale would still very much stick in the in the hearts of the peasantry and the lower classes, particularly in Northern Europe. uh, until we get to where we are today. Really? Um, empires played a big part in shipping alcohol around the world. I think Europe has had the biggest, um, biggest explosion of drinking culture in human history. From what I’ve seen and from what I’ve what I’ve read in history, we know that there are countries where alcohol just wasn’t the thing at all. You know, the Native Americans weren’t drinking alcohol. I’m not clued up on whether or not South Americans were. To be honest, I don’t. I’ve never looked into that. And that’s actually coming to my head as I’ve said it. Um, but I know I’m going to go down that rabbit hole later. Um, there was alcohol in Africa. Obviously, we know that Asia and parts of Indian places like that were drinking lots of alcohol too, but not not on the scale that we see in Europe and what it’s become today.
00:07:46
Sif:Yeah, maybe this is a rabbit hole.
00:07:49
Jack: Isn’t it? And in a nutshell, that’s where it is. It’s been used for so many different things. You know, it’s as. As you mentioned earlier, Frigga, it’s been used as something people like to wind down with in the evening. You’ll have a cold beer after a day of work or a glass of wine or a celebration. It’s been used, obviously, for wedding and celebration ceremonies, high status ritual events. It’s used for a myriad of reasons. That’s led to the situation that we find ourselves in today with alcohol, where it’s just readily available absolutely everywhere, at all times.
00:08:26
Sif: This topic, definitely in terms of revealing the extremes, was obviously me and Jack grew up in the UK, and to say that there is a drinking problem, at least from when I was at university, and that’s the sort of rhetoric that was around drinking and engaging in drinking, um, in a social setting. It was quite marks. It was almost a a point of pride to become blackout drunk. Be able to take your alcohol to drink over…Basically, come close to poisoning yourself. And what I’m seeing, at least personally, is how the media is discussing about younger people..Younger generations are moving away from drinking, and I think that it’s definitely, um, overdue. I mean, my generation is still very much remembering the university days and schooling days and not quite copying the younger generations just yet, at least in my experience. As I say, it’s a topic that is becoming more and more and more relevant. I mean, recently today, this year, last year. I mean, this is something that keeps popping up as a problem that needs solving or at least tackling in some small way.
00:09:34
Jack: Yeah, it’s um, it’s a positive that actually, because I was, I was going to make a joke that, you know, you said that became aware of the drinking culture when you went to university. And I was thinking, wow, that like, yeah. Um, yeah. Like, I mean, I remember I remember being like 13, 13 The first time I probably had a good session. I say a good session, but you know, like a drinking session where I got absolutely solid. I was 13 years old. I grew up going to football clubs and everybody was smoking and drinking inside the sports club where people were supposed to be going to be healthy. You know, it’s a deeply ingrained aspect of British culture that’s been going on in Britain. I can’t speak for for Europe. I’ve never spent a great deal of time in Europe. I’ve holidays, family holidays, where of course it’s anall inclusive, the alcohol is free and I’m surrounded by other British people making full use of that. You know, in Britain in particular, I’d say this has been going on for 3 or 400 years, really, that there’s been an intense drinking culture here and been reflected in the youth. What’s causing a decline in it is probably going to be multifaceted. It will be the availability of alcohol heavily regulated now on its sale, it’s probably less. I don’t know what teenagers are watching on television, but I imagine it’s probably less prominent. And of course, the availability of drugs and narcotics. There seemed to be a turning point towards the smoking of cannabis. When I was a teenager, as opposed to people just drinking all the time to get teenagers. So that could be playing some contributing factor, uh, education as well. I mean, I know, I know teenagers from, you know, my family, for instance, that don’t touch alcohol at all and they won’t touch it because their dad was a heavy drinker like that. So it could be living, living conditions as well. But, you know, I could name stories where it’s gone the opposite way.
00:11:28
Frigga: Yeah, I looked into it a bit in the Netherlands, it was in the what is it, 19th century? Is it it that’s drinking became heavier and by the end of the 19th century, there was a movement which tried to convince Convinced the folk to drink less and that more or less worked. If I understood it correctly, and then after the Second World War, it really became more heavy again. Up until today, I don’t know much young people, so I have no clue how it is amongst students in that age. But yeah, I think in Germany and Belgium it’s more or less the same. And there is indeed coming much more regulation so that young people can’t buy alcohol anymore. And I think that’s a good thing.
00:12:20
Jack: Oh, absolutely. Well, we had something similar in Britain, which is an which is a theory that I, I hold and I talk about sometimes with people. America had prohibition in the early 1900s. They pretty much wholesale banned alcohol, although they had speakeasies and underground drinking clubs and things like that. And that’s actually added to American culture and the meters that they’re developing around, around that, that country. And, and it’s past that also gave rise to the Mafia, um, which wasn’t a very positive thing, but it has given us some good films. We had something in Britain called the temperance movement, where, um, lots, lots of people were getting together and discussing problems with alcohol and drinking cultures in England, because in England and Scotland and Wales and Ireland, we have a very strong pub culture. And back back a hundred years ago, every, every corner of every street had a small local pub and that would be where all the, all the men after work would go and the women would go, you know. And you know, the old trope of mum trying to get dad to come out of the pub to come and be with his family, which was a very real thing back then. So the temperance movement started, and I think it was born of Christianity. And, um, they, they discussed how they could put pressure on the government to handle this drinking problem. So they introduced sort of like the laws that Germany brought in with their barley and their wheat. Um, I can’t remember the name, you know, but, um, it’s quite a big thing. And that’s why they have so much wheat beer over in Germany. But they introduce these sort of laws where alcohol percentages in beer would go down rather than up. So we used to have IPAs, which are a very hoppy ale. That would be around 6.9%, 77%, which is very strong, and it went down to about 3%, which is where you get your bitters to get your miles. These are these ales that most people would now associate with their grandad drink. It’s a sort of flat, almost lukewarm beer if it’s kept in a cask. Easy to drink, uh, tasty. But it’s like people weren’t getting absolutely smashed. And they did. They left it at that rather than banning it because World War One was going on. And the government recognised that alcohol does have its benefits as well as it’s good for morale. People do enjoy a drink banning something that’s going to help people to get through tough times and situations during tough times and situations isn’t always a good thing. So Britain as a whole really, we got used to drinking fairly weak week stuff for a long time. Uh, and then at the end of World War two, we sort of opened up to this, this, this globalism, where people could hop on a plane and go to different countries, experience other cultures. Uh, and of course, football’s took off big time as well. Around that era, and for the first time, huge swathes of normal, everyday people were able to travel around the world and follow their local football team as they competed in various tournaments and they could drink the local alcohol there, which in Europe on the mainland is significantly cheaper, uh, and significantly stronger. So Brits would be going abroad. This is my football hooligan theory. Brits would be going abroad, and they’d be finding that a pint of beer was not only cheaper than a pint back home, but it was also twice the strength. But they would drink it just as quickly. Well, we all know what happens when Brits get together and they’ve had a good drink, so they end up getting into fights and football hooliganism takes over. You know, the factionalism and the tribalism also contribute alcohol in terms of that has started to slope. Beer, for instance, has slowly become more appreciated. In the last 20 years, we’ve seen the craft beer revolution coming to its effect, and you’ve started to see in my generation and the generations below where people become, they’re more adaptable to the different styles of beer and actually more appreciative. You know, I know people have got vast beer collections that they don’t touch because it’s a collectible or it’s a special occasion beer. So shifting attitudes towards alcohol at different times is something that needs to be understood. But with Britain drinking culture, there has always been something that I’ve been aware of, and I think it’s only since I went sober about four and a half years ago, you know, that I started to really realize that it’s actually not a positive thing. On the whole. It’s actually quite, quite a worrying thing in the culture to see so many people that I’ve known that I know struggle with alcohol as well, or choose to go sober because they’ve had struggles with alcohol. One, it’s very positive to see that they’ve they’ve built themselves to a point where they’ve realized, okay, I have to stop. It’s better for everyone around me and myself. Decision that I made, it was better for me and my family. I wasn’t very good with it at all. I was very dependent on it all the time. But it nearly wrecked. Wrecked my relationship and nearly wrecked my life. So it was the best decision I’ve ever made. But if you’d have asked me 5 or 6 years ago on this topic, I’d have laughed and been like, it’s it’s great, like British drinking culture. And it’s hilarious. It’s good fun. Like we’re all just having a laugh, you know? It’s not serious. Anybody who questions, it’s just being negative. But a real eye opener is if you have friends that are American. I’ve found more friends that are from other countries, and you ask them what their opinion of the British drinking culture is like. And I’ve never met a single person from outside of Britain, and it’s come here and been like, oh, it’s fantastic. They’ve all turned around a bit like, you guys literally drink like your liver is on a backup generator. I’ve never known a country to get so drunk so much. Um, you know, like, we have a tradition of drinking before we go out drinking.
00:17:50
Sif: Yeah.
00:17:50
Jack: You know, I sort of laugh at it, but it the bravado you see around drinking cultures of, well, my, my country can drink your country. And, you know, it makes me smile because I’m like, no country can out drink in my country. And I’m not sure I’m proud of that. That’s not actually a good thing to be proud of. It means that we have a serious health issue in this country that people aren’t really talking about as much as they should.
00:18:14
Sif: Yeah.
00:18:14
Frigga: Yeah. But isn’t that often what you say to be proud of that? Being able to drink a lot is is prestige.
00:18:23
Jack: Yeah. Yeah it is.
00:18:25
Frigga: And it’s so embedded in the culture. What I said at the beginning, when I was young, I guess I was the only one that didn’t drink. And that makes you feel lonely because it is. It is in a way. If I look back. Uh, but that’s, I guess when you’re young with, with with other things as well that I really tried to to learn to drink it. To fit in. Mhm. And I think that still happens. But there is more attention and more focused that these things should be different.
00:18:57
Sif: Yeah. I think my mom basically limiting me to baby Sam was there was definitely an attitude in my house growing up that alcohol is for adults. Yeah. I mean, Jack was right. I mean, the first time I got drunk was at university, and that was at the end of my first year. And I remember very distinctly because the feeling afterwards was like nothing I had ever experienced. Um, it wasn’t a good feeling, but saying that I also, I do drink today, just in moderation. So yeah, it’s definitely something that I was very aware of as being there was an awareness from my parents that it was something to treat with respect and to know what your limits are and to not overindulge, and which I’m I’m 100% grateful for my parents, like kind of delivering that sort of like innate lesson to me, because all around me, my, my classmates were kind of bragging about drinking cider on a park bench, um, like drinking loads of, like, Lamborghini, uh, going to the club, like the under 18 club and sneaking alcohol in. And, yeah, it’s it’sdefinitely something which I felt like I was two sides of the coin. I was witnessing all of this happening and but also not partaking in it. Very strange. Uh, but, yeah, I’m. I’m glad we’re doing this episode. I’m glad Jack’s here, uh, as the guest, because.
00:20:12
Frigga: Um.
00:20:13
Sif: It’s, um, something that you obviously witnessed quite a lot in Heathenry in, in obviously, drinking a ritual is kind of the default mode. Um, it’s expected, but, yeah, I mean, my personal experience is over. The last couple of years have made me very in terms of my own family, have made me very aware of the impacts of alcohol on people and how devastating it can be as well, not to bring the mood down or anything, but, um, yeah, it’s again an important discussion to have.
00:20:40
Jack: And Heathenry in particular? Yes, in my own family background. My family are a big drinking fan, but I was different to my brothers and sisters and my mum and my dad and even my grandad and my nan who loved him. Well, you know, my grandad was an old school Londoner and my nan was a cockney and they, you know, my grandad would drink half a bottle of whisky at night. But it was, it was of his time and he was never hammered and never violent or aggressive or stupid. He was just a lovely, lovely man. My dad is the greatest man I’ve ever known, and my dad has been in the wine industry as a as a wine merchant for his whole life. He worked in Diageo, the largest wine spirits company in the world. But my dad and my brother in particular, I always noticed they have an off switch. Carl and my wife, she she has an off switch. Carl, I can’t stay up past 12. If she gets to a certain level with her drinking, she’ll just stop. She’ll get a headache, you know? When we were younger, we used to go out, but I never had that off switch ever. So I had a drink. I had to have every single day. It doesn’t matter what direction it was going, and you wouldn’t be able to convince me that I could either. Which led to me blacking out, not remembering what I was saying. It was like it was a different person that would come out inside me once I’d had a drink. I now have nightmares, like literal nightmares where I’ve. I’ve had a drink, or I’ve had a beer or someone’s given me a beer, a non-alcoholic beer all the time. I’m well known for my love of Guinness Blue, the non-alcoholic one. But, um, you know, like, I have nightmares that I know that I’ve had a drink. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to go back to that. I don’t think ever. I think I’m too scared of what that would do. But we’re all here. So where we’re at with with it in the community, I have great cause. Positivity.
Actually, I have great, great cause to be relatively positive about it. I think in the last 2 or 3 years I’ve seen a big swing. There’s now a growing support network for people to do it, and I think that the reason why so many people that come to Heathenry or come to Pagan isn’t sure that the other pagan communities have this problem too. They either come from strong drinking backgrounds or drinking cultures in Britain, and also media representation. The first film about Thor, when he goes into the cafe and they give him a coffee and he’s. He. Yeah, he next day, another one drops it, smashes it. You know, that’s like a almost like a hat tip to the 60s film The Viking, where they, they’re all quaffing from the horn and, you know, so people have the same grain idea of what heathen rituals are. You know, we’re all chanting to the gods. Yeah. It’s like Odin. And then you neck your horn and you fill it again, you know? And for new heathens, they they believe that the Vikings drank mead like it was beer. No they didn’t. They drank beer like it was beer. They didn’t drink me like it was beer. Mead is. Mead is like wine. It’s like 15, 16%. You know, you’re not going to be drinking a pint of that. so that the media representation and people really the elders or the you know, it sort of makes me think that that’s the way it’s done. And you will always see that at events as well. You’ll see the new ones that turned up for the first time, or they used to go to Viking Fest. You know, they’ve not or they’ve not had me for the first time. They’ve got their horn, they’ve got their brand new drinking all they want to show off, and they’ll fill it up with me, drink it back like it’s beer. And because it’s so smooth and it’s sweet and it’s nice, it’s a bloody nice drink. I do miss it. You know, people drink it. Oh that’s great. Yeah. Yeah. So they drink it and they want to have another one. They want to have another one the next morning. They actually look like they. It’s totally run over by the train. Hmm. They look like they’ve been totally cane. Some of the challenges that we have really is perhaps even the heathen approach to me is maybe not the same as what the the ancient heathens were doing. Were they drinking mead to the same levels that we drink mead today? I suppose it wouldn’t have been as readily available, so probably not. It probably would have just been for rituals. Special events, honeymoons, weddings. You know, things like that.
00:24:40
Frigga: Yes. But what surprises me is when I hear people a heathens talking about an event to come is about, oh, we’re going to drink a lot, or there is cheap meat there or and then by the end of the gathering, there is the huge amount of empty meat bottles. And then standing there, really proud. Look at how much we have been drinking. And then I have is that’s what we are doing here. Is that reason to gather? Not for me.
00:25:15
Sif: I think honestly, some people use it as an excuse. Obviously it’s it’sit’s drinking. It’s quite a social activity anyway. But when you’ve got like this veil of ritual over everything, as Jack was saying, I think some people definitely use it as well. I’m drinking for the gods and don’t really have that conversation with themselves of, you know, Is this just an excuse to drink? That seems very harsh and pessimistic, but maybe.
00:25:40
Frigga: And I don’t know how much people drink in daily life. Or that it is that they drink a lot, mainly at a gathering. I mean, I don’t go up to people for me. How much do you drink each day?
00:25:55
Sif: How many units do you drink a week? Just like a boy.
00:26:02
Jack: There’s a couple of things on that. So part of it is the aspect that alcohol is a social lubricant. It removes an element of wariness from people and it builds a confidence that other people have. So if you’re quite an introverted person but you’re desperate for community, it may be that you feel like, oh, if I just have a if I have a horn, I drink, I’ll be more confident. But of course, the drunk man will drink again, you know? Um. so there’s that it sort of helps to bring people out of the shell. And for other people, it’s also a letting off of steam, you know, that they’ve built themselves up in anticipation for something for so long that they that they want to have the drink as a celebration. And again, it goes back to the celebration nature in which alcohol is used. People drink to celebrate everything.
00:26:53
Sif: Yeah.
00:26:53
Jack: So I think that there is a the social aspect and it’s not always peer pressure. It doesn’t always be. It’s not always like have a drink. Oh no, I don’t drink. Are you a pussy? You know what I mean isn’t it. Mhm. It’s not always that. It’s sometimes it’s just. Oh well everybody else is having a drink. I’ll have a drink. And one thing that I always, always used to struggle with is not that I didn’t like it, I loved it, I loved it too much, but it used to always lead to no good. Which is if you’ve just been in a ritual or something great has just happened. You’ve got so many people that make their own mead, that brew their own beer, or make their own brag, and they all come up to you and go, oh, we’ll have a drink of this or try this. What do you think of this? I’ve got this for you. And you drink that, and then you drink that, and you drink that, and you haven’t thought stop to think. And no one will ever stop to think. You never stopped to think. What strength was there, how much of that I might have just had. And you look down and there’s your horn. And you may have just drunk the equivalent of a litre in the space of 20 minutes without even thinking about it, whilst still having your own drink. So it’s a tricky one. It’s a tricky one as to how why it happens, there is the bravado of look how much we’ve drunk over the weekend, and I think that’s in particular very much. I think I’ve seen that in very male circles, in all cultures probably as well. It’s not just a specifically heathen or he, you know, when when you go to weddings and after the wedding, you see the people the next day and everyone’s going, God, you know how much we drank last night? Oh, look at all those bottles over there. And yeah, it becomes an almost pride thing again. It’s not a case of countering it or stopping it. It’s how do you make it? How do you make it a safer activity that’s also respectful and inclusive for people that don’t drink. How do you do that and ensure that everybody’s enjoying themselves without worrying that somebody is going to get too drunk, or the arguments that otherwise would never have happened happen. And also avoiding unnecessary damage to the environment around you.
00:28:49
Frigga: I think that is by raising awareness and starting to talk about it, as with many other things.
00:28:55
Jack: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that we’ve done recently has become more and more prominent at altitude UK events is that we have several people at home brew. I’ve had 1 or 2 people speak to me about seeing if they can make a non-alcoholic meet themselves, and I know that Sabrina Coultas, the Asatru UK Community Support Committee member. She’s been doing non-alcoholic mead now for years. That stuff’s great. It is starting to become something. It’s almost naturally in the minds of people of of the mindful people who are mindful of others that are aware of others have already started to think about it as well. So discussion and practice are big things. Alternatives are always great. Mhm. Uh, the last four great heathen gathering types, things that we’ve heard. Uh the old thing as well, at Grimnir’sBlot. We’ve had bars there and the bar have said what have you got. Would you like, what request have you got. Would be like non-alcoholic alternatives as well. So they’ve always been readily available. Um so it’s, it’s it’sa it’s a large topic to challenge. You’re never going to be able to challenge the topic unless you start. And you have to start somewhere asking other people’s opinions and their voices be heard, too.
00:30:10
Sif: I’ll tell you what, though. That non-alcoholic mead. Oh.
00:30:15
Jack: Which one.. Sabrina’s one?
00:30:16
Sif: Yeah, she gave me the recipe, and I did it for Yule. And I don’t know why the rest of my family are very. I mean, admittedly, I do make my own mead, and, I mean, it’s still on the side because I’m just scared to drink it because I didn’t. Again, I didn’t record what the alcohol percentage was, so I was like, I didn’t want to drink that. I’m going to drink the non-alcoholic version. And, uh, that was so good. And it’s so easy to make as well.
00:30:40
Jack: So our kindred hearts, kindred our leader, kindred leader, y’all, or the title we gave him, um, he’s half Finnish and they drink something called Dema Sima. If the Finns that I know are listening to this and screaming that I pronounced it got it wrong, I do, I do apologize. It’s a non-alcoholic drink that he makes for the children to sort of them to having their little drinking horns when we do stuff, or if we do plot so that they can still be included. And a couple of years ago, he did a big, big batch of it for one of the bigger events. And, uh, that was really well received as well. I mean, we’ve used apple juice as well in the past because apple juice is fantastic.
00:31:17
Frigga: Yeah, and just water.
00:31:19
Jack: And just water.
00:31:20
Frigga: I mean, we have symbolism with water. The well, you know, dew dripping from Yggdrasil.
00:31:28
Sif: Those sensible ideas Frigga no sensible ideas in this podcast.
00:31:35
Frigga: Well, I am very sensible.
00:31:38
Sif: We’re out here like we’re kind of like, just relatively more complicated. And you’re just like water. Like, yeah, that will do. Yeah.
00:31:46
Jack: We could we could take the booze out the champagne, but keep the champagne. And then we could have that instead. I mean, we consecrate the God posts with sacred water, with spring water or water that we blessed. Exactly as you said that I’ve been thinking about that. My mind has gone quite quickly with it as to how I can put it to words. But one of the things about water, if you were on pristine land and there was a natural spring, and I’ve actually been somewhere like this, that if you were on pristine now with a natural spring and you filled people’s horns with that, people would be far more inclined to drink from that than they would if you were like, take the sacred tap water. And I don’t know why that is. Maybe it’s because it would be considered somehow more pure, I think. And closer to the Earth than the process that we get. How you marry up that because you wouldn’t drink water from a stream. I mean, you could not advise drinking water from a stream.
00:32:42
Frigga: No.
00:32:43
Jack: Um, we’ve just had the Tories for 14 years, and I can tell you now they’ve pumped an awful lot of sewage into those rivers. Well, the water companies have, but they left. So I think potentially replacing, like, sacred libations such as mead and some rituals or big rituals or for small rituals. A water ritual may be something to go down the lines of, like a consecration of a cauldron full of water, so that the community takes part and recognizes that as this isn’t just tap water that’s come out of the tap over there, it’s gone through a process. It’s been imbued with energy, with cider and maybe or gold has been performed around it or something of that ilk, sort of to to elevate it as this is holy, this is the sacred. This is not just the mundane. I had an experience five years ago. Six years since I had been born. Yeah. So my daughter was only eight months old, and there was a kindred in the West Country that invited us, myself and my friend Hamish, our publications was the publications manager for the UK. He’s one of my best mates. We were invited to go to their sacred space out in just outside of Bristol, and we had to drive across field to drive across the fields. Couldn’t see this place from the road or from towns nearby. And then we went across these fields and up onto this hillside, and they took us into this little bit of wood that was growing on the side of the hill. And in there they had wild garlic growing on the slopes, and they had a natural clearing where the sunlight shone down onto one space they’d built, like a wooden structure with skulls and bones, runes that were to represent the the whites of the land. And running down the hillside, which they’d cut into platforms for people to sit on, was a natural spring that the water ran down into, and it was the cleanest, most beautiful water. And when I went up to look at it, at its source, they had this marble eye, this beautifully blue marble eye that they kept on a little circle, a little circle.
They picked it up and they dropped it into the well, into the water. And they said, sorry. They dropped it into this spring and then said, now, now it is the well. And then we we filled our horns from that and drank that. And that was more that whole experience was more sacred to me than almost anything I’ve done before. Since we’ve been since then, we’ve done some pretty, pretty powerful stuff which water has been involved in. But when we consecrate to God, post for we do the final block. Like when Helles Helles blogpost was written, the God Post would have gone through nine hours of ritual chanting and prayer and Singing and contemplation. And blessing. You know, smudging wood with wood, burning incense and, you know, being sprinkled with clear spring water. So we’ve done some stuff since then where water’s featured heavily. But that experience there changed my outlook on what it is to make to make sacred what is sacred. Hmm.
00:35:42
Frigga: I don’t know how it is for you, but in a ritual. The horn for me is the well. So if there’s water in it, you drink the water of the well. And otherwise you can do a prayer beforehand or invoke Mimir Odin to to connect them with the water. So I think you can do all kinds of things because indeed, just, you know, tapping water, put it in nicer bottles or put it, uh, outside in the moon before you use it in a ritual. There’s so much we can think of.
00:36:14
Jack: Oh, I like that. That’s a great idea. Oh, I do like that. We could do that. Winter nights, you know. Oh, I like that. I must I must take stand, Max. Well, he’s big onto his water. Is that very big on his wall? If he’s done water rituals, he’ll love that. Oh, that’s a great idea for a well done. Oh, sorry. That’s good.
00:36:37
Frigga: 30 years of experience with ritual. So that’s some good ideas amongst them.
00:36:42
Jack: Yeah. So? So bringing into the sacred other libations. And another one I think we should really experiment with is, is apples apple juice. I have a plan for when we get around to doing the Doona cloud post, and I was hoping to ask the community that they would bring apples with them, uh, as an offering. And then we would gather the apples at the end. And initially my plan was to make it into a cider. But you don’t just need to make a cider. You could make a specific side. And it’s just for a doona as an offering, and you could just make apple juice. The rest? There are apple presses all around the country where you could you could do that and you could bless it, you know, but you can maybe hold some sort of blot as it’s being pressed.
00:37:22
Sif: There would be so many apples.
00:37:24
Jack: There would be so many apples. There would be. There would be so many apples.
00:37:30
Frigga: It could be a throwing competition or. But yeah, I want to say take a step back. You mentioned, uh, finish or half finish. Friend of you making something for the kids. But what I want is that everybody in the circle can drink the same, and that it is not a separate thing or an for children or not a separate horn for people who, for whatever reason, don’t drink alcohol. But we all can drink the same. Um, because a ritual is also connecting people. And if you then again, are the only one or maybe two people who are not drinking, um, and if you indeed use water or apple juice or anything and everybody can drink the same.
00:38:14
Jack: So yeah, that would be different drinks for different rituals, different times of year. Maybe there’s all sorts of places you can go with that, but I think that might be something that’s been overlooked and I’m certainly not hadn’t realised it until that point. If the horn is the well, then we should all drink at the same way, not by passing the horn around. Gone are the days pre-COVID.
00:38:35
Sif:T he gears are whirling.
00:38:36
Frigga: I mean, when you said you first want your tap water, it’s not so, so intriguing. But I said what? I said. If you put it in special barrels, make it more nice. You can do that with apple juice or with anything that already makes a difference. And then you then it becomes part of the preparations. Okay? Somewhere you go to the to the water tap and then whatever fill barrel. But there are steps between it before then it is used in the ritual.
00:39:03
Jack: I can see something in my head here now. So we were, um, here in Gregson led block to Freya power to patron spirit last weekend. He’d spent a lot of time in Japan and was discussing what with Joe Parker Kemp, which, um, Mhm. Ibn Fadlan discussing the the cleaning the that he recorded where they would wash the bowl, they’d wash their hands. Mhm. And he incorporated this um the washing of the hands and washing of the face into the ritual. So as we entered the vay one of us, Jemma, she was, she had like a special ladle and a copper pot full of spring water from the spring that was just at the end of the campsite. And we washed our hands and placed before entering the venue for the lots of prayer. Mhm. In ritual you could do as you say there, Frigga. You could have a like a, you could have a cauldron. And as people file in to perform ritual, they could dip their horn into the water to, to gather a drink, or you could have somebody hand out a ladle of it and say a blessing as it goes in. That would be lovely. That would be very nice that that would work really well. That was great. And it would have such meaning as well, because in theory, the horn is your own personal. Well, but then the, the cauldron in which you all take the same drink would be the well. We’ll drink from my knowledge and feeling the sacredness, the connection would all be. That would be the binding between one another.
00:40:30
Sif: Ideas are circulating.
00:40:31
Frigga: Ideas.
00:40:32
Jack: Pardon?
00:40:33
Sif: Like we’re just brainstorming ideas, I love it.
00:40:36
Frigga: Yeah.
00:40:38
Jack: I, I end up going on these things in my mind once somebody comes up with an idea. You know what I’m like saying I will get several messages from me a day just being like, oh, this, this, this and this. By the way, you don’t need to respond straight away. I’m just doing this before I go mad.
00:40:51
Sif: Like you are like the overflowing cup.
00:40:56
Jack: Yes. Oh, why?
00:40:58
Sif: We need to collect all of it. No, I like it, I like this, and I like for me waters. Um. I mean, it’s a bit more grim, actually, kind of the way that I associate water. Obviously, it’s, uh, has heavy, ritualistic kind of overtones in terms of, uh, the the way that magic was done in space is defined by water. Obviously we have fate and water being very connected, but the idea of like, um, just like liquid as well. Mead blurred to various degrees. Um, being kind of seen at various times as being sacred is, uh, interesting. And I will stop there before I go on a rabbit hole tangent. But yeah, there’s, uh, reading there’s lots of material on that, if you’re interested.
00:41:37
Jack: Well, that’s how alcohol comes to be, though, doesn’t it? Because not only did Odin steal the mead of poetry and humanity learn its secrets from the gods, our relationship with liquid and our fascination because of what liquid could do. I mean, liquid water. All liquid water is rare in the universe. We just take it for granted here on Earth. Um, but, um, the things that it does turns to steam, freezes rock hard. You could drown in it, but you need it to live its life. Yeah. Creates life. It is life, you know? Um. And alcohol. Doing what it can do to you. You know, you can become more confident. You can become funnier to everybody around you. Probably just as funny as you were before. But if everybody else has had a drink, you don’t notice. You know, so you know that it would have been possibly an elevation and people use it for elevation. Um, and really bringing the connection to not. I wouldn’t say other substances because then that sounds like telling people to go out and do acid, but like to other other liquids, you know, having a connection with, with other things other than just using alcohol to, to boost yourself. You know, it’s it’s a, a deep quandary to think about how how you can derive confidence from anything. Some people derive confidence from poem that they might derive from another drink. I don’t know. They think about what their favorite superhero would do in this situation. You know, um, deriving confidence.
00:43:05
Sif: Kick butt.
00:43:08
Jack: But, um, if alcohol is a social lubricant, sacred water or sacred apple juice or. See, I think it’s called scene. Sema. I hope I’m getting it right. Or Sema. If you believe in your heart that this is a conduit between you and the others in the circle, or the others in the ritual, or a conduit between you and your ancestors gods, then you would derive that from there to that would empower you to feel something or to feel greater. I think that you can do that as well without the need for Mead.
00:43:38
Frigga: Talking about this. I mean, alcohol, it starts with water.
00:43:42
Jack: Yes.
00:43:42
Frigga: It always comes back to water.
00:43:47
Sif: You’re being very convincing on using water only in rituals. I think what I quite like about Heathenry, despite the kind of perception of it as like a highly drinking kind of practice or pagan path, is that obviously in the hover mall, we’ve got those kind of verses about moderation. But what I also quite enjoy is the idea that, um, alcohol could be something that had magical properties. It was sacred, but it could also induce kind of forgetfulness when we have things like various Valkyries, for instance, uh, talking about inscribing runes on drinking horns and like, uh, mugs and whatever other drinking vessels there are, we have an instance of Freya or Gondal, uh, also offering a drink that induced rage and induced later forgetfulness. So it’s this kind of idea of it being sacred, something you should respect, but, you know, something that can invigorate in moderation, but also something that could be dangerous and damaging to you. And I think that’s something that I would hope more people would understand about it. Um, kind of going back to, I guess, my childhood in terms of that idea of respecting alcohol and being aware of the dangers it can possess about having too much and basically just being a little bit more mindful. All of that. And I think that Heathenry is quite good in terms of incorporating those ideas.
00:45:13
Jack: Well, it is a gift. Yeah. And all gifts. All gifts from the gods should be respect. The gift of knowledge. What you do with knowledge should be respected. I’m going to get it all wrong. But there’s a Terry Pratchett book, and they talk about where and how the printing press is a bad idea. Because once a word has been inscribed and carved to be printed, then that word only has one meaning. And if you start giving words more meanings, then that’s dangerous. Hmm. You know, but again, like the runes, language, gifts from the gods and things that should be respected. The gift of alcohol, the knowledge of brewing good from the God. Respect it. And that one’s probably a more. It’s a less subtle gift from the God as well. You know, if you’ve not been respectful of alcohol, anybody who’s not respectful of alcohol knows that, you know, and I do support medium ritual, I do. I like the medium ritual. Um, and I think but I think a time and a place is and as you say, in moderation from an inclusivity perspective. I also support the idea that we should have rituals where you don’t drink. Um, I think in particular, if you’re gonna desire is for there to be a more positive outcome, perhaps any ritual where children are involved in particular, it should not be oriented, should be. It should be about water. It should be about animals. Mhm. Without the cause of separation, you know, no one’s going to say to people after a ritual, no, you cannot drink me this evening as we celebrate around the bottle. You must not have beer, you know, but maybe in the ritual itself to really bring in the importance of the sacred. And that’s why conversations like this are important. And hearing other people’s voices too. There are many keen brewers that make mead, as we’ve talked about, that make me, because to them it is an act of devotion to the gods, to, um, that’s just as important as those who don’t drink. You know, that that that active devotion and reverence is is there too?
00:47:10
Sif: Um, Mhm. Yeah. Absolutely.
00:47:12
Frigga: Yeah. You mentioned to have a motive. What pops to my mind is what Douglas is writing in his uh Romania. Mhm. That’s when there was a meeting that in the evening they talked about the subjects. But decisions were made the next day when everybody was sober. Mhm. Mhm. Then you know when people have a couple of drinks they are often more honest.
00:47:41
Sif: Yeah.
00:47:42
Frigga: And I think that’s true as well. And maybe. I mean I had nothing against it. A person gets drunk so now and then but it is not not on a daily or weekly basis. Uh.
00:47:56
Sif: Yeah.
00:47:58
Frigga: So what we talked earlier about that it is prestige to get drunk and that it is showing off that you can drink a lot. I think that’s our thing. But you don’t impress me with it. But. And I don’t understand really getting so drunk that you can’t remember anything the next morning. Then I have. What’s the fun of that? I mean, getting relaxed by it, I can understand, and that you giggle more and that you feel more free that I can relate to. I mean that in very rare occasions where I drank a little. Uh, especially when it’s our cocktails, because that’s sweet. And then I don’t smell or taste the alcohol, and I only need a few sips, and then I feel already the effect of it. And that can be nice because it’s relaxing. And yeah.
00:48:53
Jack: Having been a man who has blacked out many times, there’s actually nothing fun about it. There’s nothing fun about waking up the morning not knowing how you got where you are. There’s a great deal of laughter at you, but not with you. I find I couldn’t count the amount of times over text messages from my friends. Being like, oh my God knew last night and my only response was what happened? And not in a haha, what happened in a oh god, what happened?
00:49:19
Sif: Um.
00:49:19
Jack: And I would say that most people that that drink till they blackout don’t really realize that they’re going to look out. There’s no telltale signs or warnings that it’s coming, or there would be to the sober man’s eyes, sober person that is watching it happen. And I know this now because I’ve had many, many years of watching people getting drunk around me at social gatherings in my day to day life, or occasionally hidden events. Although, as I said, it’s becoming a bit more of a thing, less sorry, it’s becoming less of a thing and more of a thing of the past these days. But you can see you can see something’s going on and it’s sad that it does. But really, that should be the warning. You know, I spoke to a friend to a friend of mine at a barbecue and I said, hey, how are you doing? I said, oh yeah, good. We got chain talking about the family. And I said, I haven’t seen you down the pub in a long time. I said, well, I moved away and I haven’t, haven’t touched alcohol in four years. And our other friend that was there started laughing. What caused you to knock at my head? I said, I’ve been blacking out too many times, becoming too dependent on it. And he looked at my friend and he said, there you go. Wait and see. That’s what’s happening with you. And I said to him, I said, I said, can you? I said, oh, I’m sorry that was happening. I said, oh, it’s funny, it’s funny. I said, but can you stop like you can, you know, when you have an off switch, right? Because I know you don’t have an off switch. I was like, ah, that’s exactly where I was. And I think when that becomes too much of a regular thing, that’s when we really need to have a little look at whether or not that is something we should be doing. It’s not helpful for you. It’s not healthy for people around you. It’s actually not good for your self-esteem. If you come that person in the back of your head. I think there’s almost an element of trying to drink your way out of it. Yeah, I certainly know. For me it was the amount of times I blacked out. I thought, well, this time I’ll go out and I’ll drink as much as everybody else. Doesn’t work out that way. There isn’t a muscle that can be taught. There isn’t a muscle that you could pry in to stop that. It just carries on. Your liver might. Your liver might get better at processing it. If you’re like me, you can’t stop. Which means that. Yeah, I’ve had five, five bottles of mead over the last four hours. That’s fine, because I had five bottles of mead over the last four hours last week, and I didn’t. I blacked out this time. I haven’t, so I’ll have that sick bottle of me. I can handle it now. Then you black out the next week. But yeah, you know, obviously not six bottles of me. Like no one can live at that speed. But you know that that would be the the way that it step steps up. It’s how it works in my mind is that when I was running and I know other people that struggled with alcohol have had similar feeling around it that they think they could beat. It doesn’t work. They have to stop.
00:51:42
Frigga: Mm mm. Okay. We’re talking already more than about an hour. So I think.
00:51:51
Sif: We can keep going.
00:51:53
Frigga: I mean I like it I enjoy it too.
00:51:55
Sif: Is there anything else, Jack, you wanted to mention?
00:51:57
Jack: I am plotting a ritual where two large cauldrons of sacred water will be at the entrance to the Ve in my head.
00:52:06
Sif: That sounds awesome.
00:52:07
Jack: Yeah, I’m really running with that.
00:52:09
Frigga: I would like to hear about it. Send me some pictures afterwards or something.
00:52:14
Jack: I think we should do it at winter nights this year. Under the moonlight, freezing cold water that’s come straight down out of the mountains of snow, don’t you? Yeah, I can see it. I know exactly where that block is going to be as well.
00:52:27
Sif: There we go. We’ve got a plan. Well, thank you very much, Jack, for talking about the importance of teetotal Heathenry and many, many other tangents. Is there anything you want to add in terms of where we can find you or anything you want to promote?
00:52:39
Jack: Um, yeah. You can. You can find me anywhere in Asatru UK or in Essex and Hearts. Um, don’t bother looking for me on Twitter because all I talk about is Manchester United. The biggest thing that’s coming up this year is the great Healing Gathering Tears block, where we will be consecrating a 9:00 post to tear. Uh, there will be rituals. There’ll be a live, live music and entertainment in the evening and open mic night for people to show off and laugh with people or embarrass themselves, which is what I fully intend to do. And the Kindred games and much, much more. So if anybody’s interested in attending a large gathering with lots of like minded people around that are weekend camping, please come along and have fun with us.
00:53:25
Sif: Yes, it’s going to be amazing. All right. I’m Sif and this has been the Wyrd Thing podcast. We’ve had Jack and amazing co-host Frigga. Thank you. Bye bye.
00:53:34
Frigga: Bye bye.
00:53:35
Jack: Bye.