Summary
Hosts Suzanne and Jochem talk with Frigga about ancestors and the ancestral field.
Show notes
- [00:51] For more information about the places where the dead dwell according to Norse mythology, see for example Wikipedia and Daniel McCoy.
- [00:51] The Völuspá tells the story of the creation of the world, its end and rebirth. It’s most likely the best known legend in the Edda.
- [00:51] The word ‘seidr’ comes from the Old Norse seiðr meaning ‘sorcery’, ‘incantation’, ‘enchantment’. Nowadays it is used to indicate – let’s say – the shamanic part of asatru. Seidr skills mentioned in the various written sources include: trance journeys, shapeshifting, divination, incantation, enchantment, ability to speak with spirits and healing. (Source: Het Rad)
- [18:52] Daan van Kampenhout is a Dutch shamanic teacher. He has written several interesting books on shamanism.
- [18:52] Daan van Kampenhout is the founder of the Systemic Ritual methodology. This is a healing deepening and extension of Family and System Constellations. It works with, among other things, healing stones, the wheel of the four directions, resources and the ancestors and unclear symptoms. It can be a powerful method for groups in which people and/or their ancestors share a collective trauma or difficult history.
- [18:52] The Saga of Eric the Red is a (probably) 13th century saga, that is handed down in the manuscripts Hauksbók (14th century) and Skálholtsbók (15th century), in somewhat different versions. The saga can be (freely) accessed in the Icelandic Saga Database.
- [25:12] Het Rad is a Dutch inclusive germanic heathen blot group.
- [32:52] The county of Drenthe, in the north-east of the Netherlands, is famous for the many dolmen.
- [37:17] Episode 18: How to be a good ally?
Transcript
The Wyrd Thing Episode 20 Transcript [download]
[start tune]
00:09 Suzanne
Hello everybody, and welcome to this episode 20 of The Wyrd Thing. Today is the first of our three episodes doing a deep dive into ancestors and ancestor work. And today I have with me team members Jochem.
00:28 Jochem
Hello.
00:29 Suzanne
And Frigga.
00:30 Frigga
Hi.
00:31 Suzanne
And we are talking through the ancestral field today. So, Frigga, would you like to talk us through maybe what the ancestral field is? And then from there we can maybe start exploring how it relates to contemporary heathenry and to intersectionality.
00:51 Frigga
Yes, I would love to. I would like to start, um, with having a look at mythology. Because there is so much to tell about how I perceive and how I see the ancestral fields that it scales in my mind. And I hope we can get some line into it, because there are many ways you can look at the ancestors. If you look at it from, from the point of view from the mythology, you can see that there is more than one place where the dead dwell.
I guess the most well known, um, most likely is Valhalla. But to me, as a frith weaver, I say that’s unfortunately, because that means the focus is on violence. It said the slain, those who fought on the battlefield, go to Valhalla. Actually, only those the goddess Freya doesn’t choose. As they joined her in her Fólkvangr. Still, the focus with these two places seem to be on men. Although amongst warriors one could expect also diversity.
Another place is Light Álfheimr. It’s interesting to me that this world is both seen as the world of the Light Elves, and of the ancestors. And I perceive it, it is both at the same time. I perceive it as a very lovely and friendly world.
And then if you go to another place, it’s Helheim. And that is called the world of the dead. Balder dwells there in the hall of the goddess Hel. And the Edda layer Völuspá tells that Wodan – to me the same as Odin – wakes up the seeress sleeping in this world to be able to ask her questions.
Some other things to keep in mind is that, as heathens, we often talk about the house of the ancestors. And if somebody dies, we ask the ancestors to welcome the deceased in their house. Some believe that they will join their patron deity. I guess this also could apply for the spirits. Maybe it would be interesting to do some seidr research to find out if there are ancestors amongst the dwarves and the giants and the elves.
I am wandering through the Germanic fields for about 30 years, and I heard people talk from many angles. Of course, about all kinds of things, but today we talk about the ancestors. And some people only honour their direct family line. But to me, I see it broader: I talk about the ancestral field. Then I talk about every person that died only recently, all the way to the beginning of humankind, all the way to the well. And within this field you could define all kind of smaller fields, like a family field, a religious field, a period, some time, and so on. The way I experience it, the general or collective ancestral field is to my experience a sort source of insight, protection, healing, wisdom, balance and much more. And due to my experience for many years, I have my own concepts… concepts I work with.
At the same time, I leave things open, because I learned different approaches can work, can work next to each other, at the same time. For example, I believe in reincarnation. And who knows where it is possible to reincarnate in the universe and beyond. All possibilities I mentioned before are just examples to me where ancestors might dwell. And I also think that not all souls that once dwelt the years, stay in a collective ancestral… ancestral field. So I came up with the idea of a blueprint of each life is left behind in it.
05:17 Jochem
Could you clarify if you say not all souls that once dwelt the earth stay in the collective ancestral field?
05:28 Frigga
Uhm. There you go, go to soul lore. I mean, the thought is that we are, as a human beings, part of different aspects: the body itself, a soul and spirit, mind. The way of thinking is that the soul leaves the body when you die. And there are those who think that we go, the soul goes back to some very huge, big collective soul. And then you have… Then is my thinking: but where is, remains or stays the person? The life experiences? [Jochem: Yeah] And that is how I came to the idea of a blueprint.
06:17 Jochem
Mm.
06:18 Frigga
And that source… And it might be, um, I think we talk, we’ll talk about it later… There are people who, who, before they die, consciously decide that they will stay awake… After death. Because that’s what we talk about that, that’s also that, that’s, um, when somebody dies, the person goes to sleep.
06:43 Jochem
Let’s talk about that, that later. Uhm, I was triggered by: if not all souls stay in the collective ancestral field, where do the souls go that don’t stay in this collective ancestral field?
07:02 Frigga
Haha. Now you only talk about souls, and I talk about the dead. And I don’t separate the person from the soul when I talk about the ancestors.
07:13 Jochem
Ah.
07:15 Frigga
I leave open where they go to. I talk about, from my experience, how I perceive it and what I work with.
07:25 Jochem
Mm.
07:26 Suzanne
So you’ve covered quite a lot there. And starting with sort of the, the mythologies that we have, those understandings from the sagas, from the texts, from the Edda’s of, of what happens after death. Uh. And then thinking about, you know, how your own personal understanding is of this, that we have this concept of the ancestral field. As in a place in which all ancestors are present, are linked together, are connected, that we can, um, work with or communicate with or… link to ourselves is ever. Have I got that right?
08:10 Frigga
Yes, yes. Uh. And what I also would like to mention: if you talk with heathens, um, people refer to our ancestors. And what they often mean is, um, the period of time of the, uh, Germanic peoples. Yeah, you can work in that way. In that way you can, can connect with ancestors from that period. And, uhm… In that way, bits and pieces of the culture, the way that the spirit of time. But as I said before, to me if I really start working with ancestors, uh, if it’s needed for healing for people, you can’t just skip a couple of thousand years. And how many generations are that? Because all the people who lived before us, somehow a part of what we grew into as humankind.
09:18 Suzanne
Hmhm.
09:19 Jochem
I like the idea of this huge ancestral field.
09:26 Suzanne
And ways to almost navigate that as well. And considering that we don’t just have Germanic ancestors, but we have, uh, you know, ancestors who are closer to us, ancestors that are further away from us and that that almost becomes like constellations, like stars.
09:48 Frigga
If you think, we all have – or most of us – are born from two parents. And then you have four grandparents, which means you have eight great grandparents. So the generation before that is 16, before that… is 32, before that is… 64, before that is 128, and so on. So it is going so rapidly in a wide range. It is a kind of wide triangle and not a direct line, not a linear line.
10:35 Suzanne
Mm.
10:36 Jochem
And if you say that you see the fields, uhm, way back to the, uh, to the, to the well, do you take, um… And you are… No. And you said also, it’s not only my, uh, ance… my direct ancestors. Uhm, do you consider other people’s ancestors also in, in the ancestral field? Because then it’s not even a triangle, but maybe a square, or, uh, a circle, or whatever.
11:17 Frigga
Yeah, you can. Yes. But if you if you look it from the point from one person, then it’s kind of a triangle.
11:25 Jochem
Yeah, of course.
11:26 Frigga
But even that triangle shows how many ancestors you have, if you go generations back and generations back. So that means that all these ancestors are also ancestors of a lot of other people. [Jochem: Yeah] In that way, it’s not narrowed down to me anywhere, to one family or just one line. There are many lines, going in many directions, towards many people.
11:57 Jochem
And I think now you say, uh, that most people think of ancestors as a line. Uhm, that, uh, rings, rings a bell with, uh, family trees. And that’s always, uh, in the father’s line in our society. Other so-… societies are more focused on maternal lines, but even then it’s only one of the, of the parents.
12:34 Frigga
Yeah. And that’s a limitation, which is a pity. There is much more.
12:43 Jochem
Yeah. I have a very practical question. [Frigga: Mm] Uhm, when working with, uh, ancestors, when it’s further away, they are used to an entirely different, uh, soci-… society. Maybe they don’t know electricity, uh, cars and stuff. What is your experience with, uh, with that?
13:10 Frigga
That you have to explain to them. [Laughs] We are living in a very different time and age, with different culture, with different approaches. Because what hap-… what I saw happening more than once is that, if you call upon ancestors from further back, or even it can be if there are different lines from different cultures [Jochem: Mm] that you have to tell them. Because they, otherwise they might give you advice from their time and age, and they might advise you to hide yourself or to be careful. Things which are not necessary any more in, or hopefully not necessary any more, in the time we live. You’re just… And that’s to me, to, the same as to the gods and all other spirits: we have to educate one another. [Jochem laughs]
14:10 Suzanne
And thinking about that: it’s, yes, they, they may come from a time when they didn’t have water coming into a house or plumbing or central heating or, uh, didn’t learn to drive a car or don’t know what a car is and wonder where all the horses have gone. But I think they still have things they can teach us.
14:37 Frigga
Going both ways on on all levels. They can teach us things and we can teach things to them. For the first 15 years I was a heathen, the gods played the most important part in my life. And suddenly, or suddenly, slowly the ancestors became more, uh, or I became more of the ancestors. Let’s say it the other way around. And I was working with seidr. And I use seidr if I talk about witchcraft, shamanism, healing in what I call the Germanic field. You notice the most obvious things… Comes to mind, come to mind often lately, is that: okay, but I believe in the ancestors and I believe there are blueprints, then there are those in the Germanic ancestral field who practised seidr when they were alive.
15:37 Jochem
Mm.
15:40 Frigga
What I do is simply: sit down, I call upon ancestors, and I just said out loud what I just expressed. When, hey, this pops to mind, and well, yeah, suddenly there were, there was a change in presence and some of them showed up. And such was pretty interesting. And then I simply, on a later moment, I called… I started calling them the seidr mothers and the seidr fathers. By now I also use the seidr siblings or the seidr eldings… seidr elders to be, to use gender neutral language. And to invite, you know, more variety of people instead of only thinking in male and female. And, um…
So on a later moment I, I started calling upon them more, and I just took them on a tour through my house. [Jochem laughs] And I explained to them, uhm, uh, this is my, uh, seidr, sacred seidr objects I have made. And I explain them, um, techniques I learned, modern tesn… modern techniques, like working with muscle testing. I just told them all that. And at least some of them, I had this feeling just, you know, listening to me. Even: ‘Oh, this is interesting. [Jochem laughs] What can we learn from that? And how can we use that?’ And yeah, I like that. [Laughs] That is going both ways. And I definitely learned a lot from them.
17:28 Jochem
Mm.
17:30 Suzanne
Mm, and that kind of… understanding that we have, uh, you know, people in our past who used seidr, who had trades, who were masters of their craft. It’s, it’s quite a new concept for me is that when I imagine the ancestors, I tend to have them most quite… almost blurry. They’re not very in-focus sometimes. And the more recent ones, the ones I knew when they were alive, they’re the ones that are stood right at the front. But people behind them, uh, tend to not be as focused. So to think of them in that way as, uh, masters of seidr practice, or masters in trades, that’s a new kind of thought for me.
18:26 Frigga
Yeah, at one point it was for me as well. [Laughs]
18:29 Suzanne
So thinking about this understanding of an ancestral field, or constellations of ancestors of, of thinking of them as at different… Uh, in different groups that overlap each other. Is there a theory behind that? Or is there somebody’s work that influences that for you?
18:52 Frigga
Yeah. Then I have to mention Daan van Kampenhout. He is a Dutch, uh, shamanic worker. And he also works with family constellation work, family constellations. He combines his experience from shamanic work and family constellations, and he called that ‘systemic ritual’. And yeah, I think he is of a huge… influence on the way I think. Partly his theories on it, and due to the seminars of him I followed and the many constellations I saw. And if I think back of that, I’m still impressed of what I learned from that. Before I go into that, I want to take a little step back.
The way I often perceive it and I heard from other people, if you talk about the ancestral field and if you, uhm, do a ritual, like the ritual which is described in the saga of Eric the Red. The seeress who is going into trance, and, uh, the people can ask her questions. I know by now that, that’s a lot of heathens all over the world have, have come up with their own ritual to do that. And then, um, you perceive the ancestors are some, indeed some kind of collective. It is not one voice you hear when you’re in trance, but several voices. And it is up to the seer to pick out one of the voices. And yeah, somehow that’s the voice which maybe is the loudest, or, or gets your attention most.
So I also can relate if you say that the ances… that you might perceive the ancestral field as that the ones that are… died more recently are still more focused on, on the living. And again, we talked about that, or the way we talk about is that they are, that the dead are asleep. So yeah, if they they are asleep, then there is no focus on anything. So there are so many ways you can look at it. And I have the feeling that I’m completely chaotic about it again. [Laughs] Due to that! [Suzanne giggles]
21:43 Jochem
No, I don’t think you’re very chaotic. It’s just a topic that has a lot of aspects.
21:51 Frigga
Yeah, and one of the things I, uh, preparing on this episode, I looked through notes that I made during seminars of Daan. What he told, is, is indeed that ancestors, I will just read it out loud: ‘Ancestors who have not been dead for a very long time, often largely retained their personality and their attention is often still focused on the living. The further back, the less personality is left. Attention is increasingly shifting towards the place where the people are: the dead among each other. Ancestors sink into a kind of sleep state and sometimes have to be woken up again. It is necessary to help remember the ancestors, to remember the family ties.’
So, that’s a bit on the contrary of what I say from… No, not on the contrary. That is why I start thinking in ways of a blueprint. And I don’t know if I work with the ancestral fields if I work with a person or just with the blueprint. And maybe it’s other ancestors who are awake, who represent that blueprint. It’s all possible to me, I’ll leave it open. I can only tell what works for me, the way I perceive it. And again at the same time I leave it open.
23:34 Jochem
Yeah. Does it matter for your work? How it…
23:43 Frigga
No.
23:44 Jochem
So it’s nice to this, uh, discussion to, uh… Philosophise?
23:50 Frigga
Yes, I think philosophise. And we need concepts to work with.
23:57 Jochem
Yeah. Of course, yeah.
24:01 Suzanne
I think for me, what is interesting about what you are saying, is how you’ve taken the, not only the the mythology, but also the, the theory around ancestral fields, family constellations and started exploring and developing that for yourself. And also having now sort of left room for that to develop further, for there to be more thought on how that works for you and how it is evolving as a… as you experience it. It changes and evolves and, and deepens as you work.
24:43 Jochem
Maybe I can ask a simple question then. Or a simple, probably not very simple. However. Uhm, you said, uh, some ancestors sink into a kind of sleep state. [Frigga: Mm] And they need to be woken up again. [Frigga: Mm] What is your experience with, uh, with that? Is it easy to wake up, uh, ancestors, or not? Or does it de-, depend, or vary?
25:12 Frigga
It varies, it depends on… But I can recall one time we were talking with the ancestors. (And I sometimes talk in ‘we’. And ‘we’ is, is the people over the years I worked with, and experienced and developed our way of seidr. So it’s not a royal ‘we’. [Laughs. Jochem and Suzanne laugh too] But I do owe the people of, of blot group Het Rad over the years and people who joined in my workshops. I learned from all of them.)
We were once, uhm, a boy needed, needed – a young kid, I think about ten years old – needed… He experienced, uh, spirits. And he wasn’t sure how he felt about it. So we talked to ancestors we worked with among the seidr fathers and the seidr mothers. And they thought it’d be, to be a good idea if, if one of his own ancestors would keep an eye on him. And we worked with, um, to be taken over by spirit and let the spirit talk through you. So on one moment we were sitting there, talking with one of the seidr fathers. And he came up with: ‘No, he needs a ancestor of his own.’ He was gone and it was just split seconds. There was another talking, the body of a friend of mine, and sitting there very confused. So what happens is that a seidr father just put somebody out of his sleep [Jochem laughs] and put him in a body. [Suzanne laughs]
27:10 Jochem
That’s weird.
27:11 Frigga
So we were sitting there a little confused, because that was the first time that happened. And the ancestor was sitting there a bit, you know, confused with: ‘I was asleep and where am I? What is happening?’ [Laughs] But once we explained to him what just was happening and what we’re talking about. And that’s one of his descendants need his help, he was all attention and all willing to be there for this little boy.
27:41 Suzanne
That’s good.
27:42 Jochem
Yeah.
27:43 Frigga
Yes.
27:44 Jochem
Is that usually the case that if you explain it that it’s about, uh, descendants that they are willing to co-, cooperate?
27:56 Frigga
Yes, mostly. And I’m going to step back. If you talk about the collective field in general, there is a lot of attention for the living. There is a lot of love. Support. Strength. Wisdom. Knowledge. If you go into the family fields, that can be different. Because there can be a lot of problems in a family field. And of course, also among the ancestors, there are the ones that we call not nice, not friendly. They stayed as they were alive. And well, that’s why if I call upon whether it’s the gods, or the spirits, or ancestors, I always say something in the lines of: ‘those who care about us’, ‘those who are inclined to honour frith’ [Jochem: Ah!] to put in some kind of protection that not the morons will show up.
29:06 Jochem
Yeah.
29:07 Suzanne
So you’re talking there about working with sort of almost smaller ancestral fields, like smaller groups of ancestors? [Frigga: Mm] And how they might be defined by particular things, but also, yeah, you were saying they’re being safe when you’re working with ancestors.
29:26 Frigga
Yes. Yeah, but with all this kind of work, you have to, to be aware that you put a protection. And that you, uhm, always be alert.
29:40 Suzanne
Mm. So thinking about, uhm, diversity and… different identities that would have existed in the past and exist now, for a smaller ancestral field. Could you give some examples of smaller types of fields somebody might want to work with?
30:03 Frigga
Yeah, I guess I mentioned them before. Uhm. You can, uh, of course the first one is the family field. Direct family, and your direct ancestors. You can think in religion. The religious field, and I’ve mentioned that before. For heathens, that is the Germanic ancestral field. Uh, periods in time. Working with witchcraft is, has a lot to do with imagination. Use your imagination and come up with so many things. So it is only recently and due to The Wyrd Thing podcast and talking way more about inclusivity and diversity, is that it came to my mind that there must be a quiltbag ancestral field.
30:59 Jochem
Mm.
31:01 Suzanne
A sort of LGBT ancestors?
31:03 Frigga
Yeah, yeah. There must be.
31:08 Jochem
That makes sense.
31:11 Frigga
Oh, there must be so many fields I’m not even aware of, because it’s simply not in my thinking. At all or not yet maybe. That people find each other, the dead find each other. And if I look at the Western world and all the edges of Christianity where it was not easy for, for quiltbag people, that they found one another, or at least hopefully a lot of them found one another, in their own safe space amongst the ancestors.
31:49 Suzanne
So thinking about we now have those definitions, those terms like quiltbag or LGBT+. But for people in our ancestral field, they might not have identified with those terms, yet still might be part of that field.
32:05 Frigga
Yes, in a way I think it is. More people are working with it in this way or another way, similar. So I think that field is getting attention now. And I also think, I mean, we use now is chosen family. Uhm, and that applies for LGB people and, and also, of course, in other situations. So there are also chosen ancestors. I think that, that’s the LTB… Please, can I stick to quiltbag? [Jochem laughs] Otherwise I’m losing all the letters.
32:47 Jochem
Let’s do so, yes. [They all laugh]
32:52 Frigga
And as many other fields do need healing, because there are a lot of damaged people in it. Because what have been done to them over so many centuries. Me as a frith weaver and a healer, then I would like to offer my assistance, my help to bring healing, to bring balance. So I come up with… Rituals need to be done, and we made a start of that. Jochem was there and some other friends, when we had our autumn blot.
Because when I started working with the ancestors and rituals like this, I think it just to be polite to call upon them and introduce ourselves and explain what is on our minds. And not just rushing into such a field, because then you do the same what always happened: you just stamp over them, use them. You don’t respect borders and that kind of things. [Suzanne: Mm] And then I start calling upon the general ancestral field and explain what is on my mind. And then I wait for ancestors to show up, and yeah, the response we felt is that there is definitely such a field, and healing is needed.
And I think I will be with this field even more careful than I am – or maybe I’m more aware of things – that we will first ask the field what it needs and not just as I said marching in there and: ‘Oh, we’re going to bring healing.’ No, I mean, because then we decide what they need. And it should be the other way around. The respect that’s always, uh, needed that I offer it. [Jochem: Mm] And then I have to listen to the ancestors: what they need and what they tell us they need. And maybe… Now that didn’t happen, because it clearly is that there’s going to be interaction and is there going to be healing. And we will find out how it’s going to be. But always be aware that they might say: ‘No, we don’t want anything.’ Or: ‘We don’t want to deal with you.’ [Suzanne: Mm]
I can remember one time we went to the, the hunebedden in the eastern part, eastern part of the Netherlands, you know, this big, uh, big, huge… Is it called boulders? Stones? Which are grace from a long time ago. And we went there… [Jochem: Dolmens] With, uh… The dolmens. With a handful of people, and had in mind to do there some seidr, and get in contact with ancestors. So we went there, we find a nice one, sit down, made contact, explained what we’re coming to do, and they said no. [Jochem giggles] And we’re looking a bit at one of them. No? ‘No, you’re welcome to be here. Enjoy you’re being here. But we don’t want contact and we don’t want such a ritual.’ [Suzanne: Mm] Okay.
36:27 Jochem
That’s clear.
36:28 Frigga
Yeah, that’s clear. And I respect that. [All giggle]
36:33 Suzanne
So while you were talking there, I was thinking on the fact that some of my ancestors were probably quiltbag ancestors. And thinking about working with that field, that’s a very easy thought for me to have, because I share that identity. But for somebody who is straight, who maybe doesn’t and has never thought about their ancestors in that way, that might be quite a… a tricky thought that they might need to think on. [Jochem: Um] Maybe before they come to do that ritual, come to do that work, they may need to do some thinking within themselves first?
37:17 Frigga
Yeah, I think that is wise. We come back to the, the last episode we made of, of season two: how to be a good ally? [Suzanne: Mm] And I think you need to feel comfortable, specific if you want to bring healing. I mean, if you are not comfortable with quiltbag people, then you might consider to do a ritual. Unless you’re willing to, to learn. And then again: be honest. Just simply be plain honest. And one of the things I also do is that when I first make contact, uh – and let’s, uh, stick to the, the quiltbag field as an example – is: I said, I introduce myself and I explain. And I ask for two or three ancestors in that field who are willing to communicate, who are capable of communication.
Because then you leave it to be a safe space for all others. Because I can imagine, I’m cisgender hetero, that they might not trust me due to that. [Suzanne: Mm] So then simply ask for one, or two, or three ancestors who are capable, willing, who want to have that interaction. And they can be the voice for the entire field. They can be the mediator. [Jochem: Mm] I will not enter that field without permission, I mean, the collective ancestral field. I just go in a religious field, I might just go in. But this field, I realise, I will not go in without permission.
39:18 Suzanne
So it’s like almost considering yourself as an ally to your ancestors.
39:28 Frigga
Yes.
39:29 Suzanne
I like how that ties into the discussions that we’ve had before.
39:31 Jochem
Mm.
39:32 Frigga
There is healing needed in ancestral fields in many ways. And that’s what I have learned over the years, perceived over the years is that we can do things for the dead, for the ancestors which they can’t do themselves. [Suzanne: Mm] And so it is this constant interaction and going in both ways. They can be very helpful to us. They can bring us wisdom, strength, healing, what we need. But it’s also the other way around.
40:10 Jochem
Mm.
40:10 Suzanne
And I think for me, that’s almost a whole new discussion in that area.
40:17 Frigga
[Affirmative] Mm.
40:19 Suzanne
Maybe that would be really good for the next episodes, especially with them focusing on this area of ancestors and ancestor work.
40:29 Jochem
Frigga, you said that if you do ancestral work in a specific field, that you ask two or three ancestors as a kind of representatives of the [Frigga: Mm] for their safety. But if there is a lot of healing work to be done, I can imagine it is for your personal safety as, as well.
40:56 Frigga
I never thought it in that way.
41:00 Jochem
Ah, I was just imagining, um, if a lot of ancestors say: ‘Oh, yes, yes!’ And run towards you. That can be quite overwhelming, to say the least.
41:16 Frigga
Yes. [All laugh] Yes, and I never saw it in this way. But indeed, if, if healing is needed, it can be overwhelming. [Jochem: Yeah] Again, it comes back to sit down, and explain, and tell them: ‘Hey, you are now overwhelming. We will listen, but please first tell us what you want to tell, what is needed instead of overwhelming us. Because if you are, then it’s going to be too much for us and we will not able, or hardly able, to do something.’
I can recall a time when healing was needed for a little boy. And we were together for a workshop, and we decided that it would be a nice gesture to, to empower a candle for the child. So we gave everybody… The candle was passed on and everybody could empower it with whatever they felt proper. And suddenly, uh, my seidr co-worker and I were crying. [Jochem: Mm] And felt swept off our feet, and overwhelmed with, with grief and fear. And we were looking at one another: ‘Okay, what is going on?’ And then we realised that the ancestors had been: ‘Okay, but you are listening. We can communicate with you.’ And we simply told it… We told them: ‘Please, we are at the beginning of a workshop, so it’s for us not the time. But we will listen to you later on today. [Jochem: Mm]
And so we did. We had a workshop, we went home, we had dinner, and then we sit down. And again, when we called upon them it was so overwhelming. But then we were able to tell: ‘Please, draw back a little. We will listen. [Jochem: Yeah] We are totally willing to, to cooperate with you. Do the healing part which is needed, as far as we can do it. But you have to draw back, because this is too much grief. Because we now feel the grief, and the pain, and anger, and the fear of generations.’
43:48 Jochem
Oi, that is a bit much.
43:49 Frigga
That is too much.
43:51 Jochem
Yeah.
43:52 Frigga
And then you feel that, that it is fading away and then you can start communicating.
43:59 Jochem
Mm. Yeah.
44:01 Frigga
So, always pay attention to your own boundaries. And if needed, just take a step back. And tell them. What I always say: if, if it’s good, good ancestors, then they will listen. Because then they don’t want to harm you. It’s just, you know, they are overwhelmed. They are… stuck in, into where they are.
44:32 Jochem
And maybe if they have been asleep for a very long time, they may have forgotten about humans? And how it’s how it is to be human?
44:46 Frigga
Yeah, that kind of things might play a role. But it’s sad if it’s, if it’s pain and grief of many generations, it’s a lot. How many ancestors are you talking about?
45:02 Jochem
Yeah. And if listeners who listen to this episode, and like to do some ancestral work for themselves or, uh, if they don’t do it already, do you have some tips for people how they can start doing ancestral work?
45:30 Frigga
Keep it simple. As I said before, just sit down and do a small ritual. [Jochem: Mm] Do some kind of, of uh, protection ritual, that you might already be accustomed with, like a hammer rite. [Jochem: Mm] Light a candle. And then just sit down and talk out loud. That’s what I always do: sit down and talk out loud. And just say: ‘Hello, ancestors. Here I am. This is my name. I would like to get in touch with ancestors in general.’ Or, uh…
And you can even tell that you are feeling shy, or feeling uncomfortable, or be honest. Then sit still and feel. And you might feel a presence. Or there might words pop up in your mind. [Jochem: Mm] Or maybe it can be the next day that you read something in a book or on the internet, which: ‘Oh, wow. But that’s looks like the answer to my question. Or what is going on in my mind.’ Trust yourself. [Jochem: Yeah] And when you’ve finished the ritual, say ‘thank you’. Just be polite.
46:56 Jochem
That’s sounds easy enough to do.
47:04 Frigga
Mm, it is. If I may say that. With rituals in general, with seidr work in general, it depends on the person who you are whether you need a lot of… Whatever, uh, to help you into, to become relaxed, or into the proper state of mind, or it can be so simple. So if you need more things to do, then please do so.
47:37 Suzanne
Yeah. Today has been a fascinating discussion. Listening to you both just talk through maybe thoughts on ancestors, how we work with ancestors, how we might perceive our ancestors, how we might start looking at a framework for working with them. So please, listeners, come and join us for our next episode where we continue, uh, looking at our exploration of ancestors. Looking at, uh, again this topic, which is, it’s almost infinite in how we can approach it, how we can look at it. Looking at that again in our next episode. So I would like to thank you, Jochem, and you, Frigga, for your comments and thoughts today and exploring the topic of ancestors or starting this three episode deeper dive into ancestors and ancestor work.
If you would like to find us online, listeners, you can do. You can find this on our website at The Wyrd Thing. You can also find us on social media. If you do want to give any of our past episodes a listen, they are all up and available for you to listen to. And we have also got the transcripts available for you as well. So do come and join us for our next episode, where we continue this exploration into ancestors and working with ancestors. And we will all talk to you there. Bye bye!
49:16 Jochem
Bye bye.
49:18 Frigga
Bye bye.
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