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Episode 21: Bridging the Gap


Host Suzanne talks with Frigga, Michiel, Nancy and Jochem about the special LGBTQIA+ ancestor ritual they performed.

The Wyrd Thing Podcast – Episode 21 – Bridging the Gap

Show notes

  1. [00:30] Episode 20: Ancestors and the ancestral field, part one of our trilogy on ancestors.
  2. [1:08] Flame of Frith is an international heathen prayer circle, that started as an initiative for peace. In the years it has grown into an prayer for peace, safety, solidarity and sustainability.
  3. [8:19] Het Rad is a Dutch inclusive germanic heathen blot group.
  4. [16:47] The Dutch saying ‘de kat uit de boom kijken’ literally translates to ‘to look the cat out of the tree’. It means to wait. According to this saying one should not react immediately, but first look carefully at what is going on and based on that determine what one can best do or say.


The Wyrd Thing Episode 21 Transcript [download]

[start tune]

00:30 Suzanne

Hello and welcome to episode 21 of The Wyrd Thing. Today we are following on from episode 20 ‘Ancestors and the Ancestral Field’, and we are looking at an ancestral field healing ritual. So my name is Suzanne and I’m a member of The Wyrd Thing team, and today I also have with me Jochem [Jochem: Hello], Frigga [Frigga: Hi] and our special guests, Nancy and Michiel [Nancy: Hi, Michiel: Hello]. And so to start with, um, Frigga, would you tell us a little bit about why we might want to do a ritual like this one?

01:08 Frigga

Because I think… healing… bringing back, restoring balance is.. is most often needed. And you said the ancestral field and today we will talk about the quiltbag part of the ancestral field, to be specific. And there healing is needed. For there are many who lived… their lives, uh, as a quiltbag person… Through the centuries, it hasn’t been easy – to say it in a very friendly way. And like quiltbag people often talk about a ‘chosen family’ because their own families are not always that kind for them. They also somehow – or some how, maybe by choice, maybe in other ways – ended up in their specific part in the ancestral field as I perceive it.

And yeah, when people by living on this planet have had so much difficulties in their life… when they die, they take it with them. So that is all in, in the ancestral field. And when you have a lot of ancestor spirits together… with trauma, with grieve, with pain then – as it is my experience – the ancestral field needs healing. And often… we can do that for our ancestors. As a healer it’s not a question for me if you do it. When we talked about the Flame of Frith and talked about other rituals we could do… somehow this popped up. Well, that somehow most likely are spirit ancestors who thought it to be a good idea. And we responded to their request, and started talking about it. Which led to a healing ritual for the quiltbag ancestral field in Yule time.

03:05 Suzanne

We talked to our last episode, episode 20, on the ancestral field, and on sort of those groups of people that we might find within an ancestral field. Would you be able to tell us a little bit about, just refresh our memory as to, the people that, you know, that sort of field, the group within that field that we might be working with?

03:29 Frigga

What I learned over the years, in my perception, I, um, experience a what I call the general ancestral field, where as I believe, all ancestors go. And within that field you can perceive different fields and that can be family fields, which is direct family. But it also can be a religion, uh, a way of thinking. So which is just using your imagination what kind of fields there can be within this huge ancestral field. When I’m talking about the general ancestral field it’ s about people who died just recently up all the way back from all over this planet. [Suzanne: Mhm]

So I think because we are now having contact with what I started calling the quiltbag ancestral field. I think it’s there in a kind of way already for a long time. And most likely because we are now… giving it attention, we are communicating with the field. And then I talk a bit in an abstract way and… about… a collective, not, not specific, uh, ancestral spirits. I think it will become stronger somehow and, and get more shape.

04:42 Suzanne

Mhm. So I know we talked last time about… being aware that you may have quiltbag ancestors, you may have LGBT ancestors. And that everybody may have them within their ancestor fields. So for some people, this may be a very new thought. There is a group of ancestors within that field that may have experienced a lot of hurt and a lot of pain. [Frigga: Mhm] A lot of perhaps rejection. or denial that… we here and now can help them manage.

06:41 Frigga

[With a deep sigh] Yeah, I hope we can, I think we can. Just a thought what is crossing my mind the last couple of days, because we’re working on the ritual, developing the ritual. It is a lot on my mind, is… if you, um, think of it in, in as we living beings about communities. Nowadays we are often part of more than one community. It can be the family, or the street you live in, or it can be… what we often have are heathen communities. So I wonder if, if our quiltbag ancestors can be in the ancestral fields – and then it is for other ancestral spirits of course, as well – be part of more than one field. [Suzanne: Mhm] That they are just part of their own family field, but also of the quiltbag field.

06:07 Suzanne

Mhm. And so many groups and connections between… those ancestors that it’s almost just limited by the way we think about how they might be connected together and… [Frigga: Yes] it’s much more than that.

06:16 Frigga

Yeah. And that’s what I often say: over the years I worked a lot with, with Nancy and Michiel. Michiel, who I known now for, I guess, 20.. more than 20 years. And then Nance, most likely about ten years or maybe longer. So we worked a lot with ancestors and we, we developed our own way of working. And when you experience things… your own way. And yet, I think it’s always important to be aware that we are humans. In that way, just as you said, Suzanne, we are limited by our human way of thinking. And be aware that there are possibilities beyond [Suzanne: hmm] our imagination.

06:55 Suzanne

Yeah, just sort of having a moment to think about how I am connected to so many different groups and people. And how that might mirror in the ancestral fields, and how a single ancestor there might be connected across very many different groups and ancestors that they are forming those connections with. So yeah, that’s, that’s a big thought. [Laughs] For me, that’s a big thought. So Frigga, you were saying you’ve done this work before with our guests. [Frigga: Hmm] Which of the three of you just like to talk a little bit about some of the past experiences? Maybe where you started doing this work and how that’s developed?

07:35 Frigga

Yo, that’s way back! [Frigga and Suzanne laugh] Well, I’m a heathen for, for 30 years now. But before that, of course, I had my interest in spirituality in, I prefer not to use the word shamanism, but I still haven’t… another word for it. And somewhere we met. And, yeah, we started or started.. We worked with seidr, and with seidr I, I more or less mean… witchcraft, magic, shamanism within the germanic field, within the germanic world view. And there’s some where the ancestors popped up and you start listening to them. Nance, Michiel, I would like to hear you also about it.

08:19 Michiel

Yeah, well. what I remember from when I joined Het Rad and started doing rituals with you, is that from the beginning on, we’re just busy with our own issues and our personal issues. We were doing things like healing the land… working with ancestors to make the tradition stronger. All that kind of stuff.

08:41 Nancy

And I joined them later because I fell in love with this big guy. And the first time I worked with the ancestor field with Het Rad and with Michiel and Frigga, I was channelling an ancestor… at that time. Because there was needed for some healing for another member of the group. And the thought of… if you don’t have feel the support of your family you are born in, but feeling the support of the ancestor feel to… yeah… being seen, being heard, being valued. That still strikes a chord with me. And that’s why I… just wanted to also join in with the quiltbag ancestors. Because I believe everyone needs to be… wants to be – and maybe needs to be – heard or seen, loved, taken care of.

09:35 Suzanne

Mhm… So, thinking about where the three of you started with this work and where you are now with this work. What kind of things are different now to when you started, when you first did these things? Are you.. do you do things differently now or are you focused on different things now?

09:55 Frigga

Well, life is change. So, I don’t think we really work in a different way. But the way you think change and you learn more. You’re more aware of things.

10:11 Nancy

If you work together for a long time, you know everyone’s weakness and strong points. [Frigga: Mhm] And you can play and act on that. Different is than ten years ago, it flows. [Frigga: Yeah] We don’t need to think about it any more. And, um, that in the last ritual, uh, when Jochem also helped, I was surprised and amazed that it flowed so well with somebody new with us. [Suzanne: Mhm]

10:43 Frigga

Yah, I think it’s about trust. When you work so long together, there is trust. Trust that.. somebody will, you know, be aware of things. You trust one another’s intuition, all these kind of things. And then indeed, it is amazing – specific, when you work with only 4 or 5 people – when new people joins that it can be so… familiar. The trust is there. But maybe we can… tell a bit about the ritual we did, before we start talking about it. [Suzanne laughs]

11:15 Michiel

Well, I think the form more or less similar to what we have been doing all those years. Though, of course, well, we all have been learning new things, being inspired by new things. For instance, what was part of this ritual we did was constellation work.. constellations. And that’s something that has been in and out of our rituals throughout the years.

11:38 Frigga

Since I learned that way of working, and I was fascinated by it. [Laughs] Yeah, and what I also want to say, because that is specific when you work with only 4 or 5 people when new people joins… that it can be so… familiar. The trust is there. But maybe what you said, Michiel, that, that with Het Rad, our blot group… we always also did rituals for the greater good. That simply has always been part… I mean, I said, I’m a healer, I’m a frith weaver, so you work for the greater good. It’s so… yeah, it’s self-evident that I do that.

And later on, the Flame of Frith became part of my life. A huge part. And due to that, I realised more and more that… it’s about… The Flame of Frith specific… Is to serve. To serve the community. To serve the earth. To serve the ancestors. And that’s the thought behind it. Yay, that’s why mixing up between ritual and rituals. Because it was the first ritual for the quiltbag ancestral field we did.

And before that, of course, we had communication. Maybe we should talk a little about that. I think if I talk, at least for Nancy and me, we often have a direct contact with the spirits, and we let them speak through us. And that’s in a way, also when you work with constellation work, and when you work with people who representing other people, then somehow there’s information coming through. The moment you are in a ritual and you are representing, then you begin to experience. And that might be a variety of feelings, and it might be thoughts. It might be that you feel that your posture, you stand in a different way. And that is what you’re starting to express. And a facilitator has an overview, if it’s correct, listens to the different representatives, what is said, what they feel. That’s the way to perceive information.

And was, of course, constellation work here for family constellations. The way that the, the the representatives are put in in this space also said something. And for the quiltbag ritual, we worked with for people, we use stones to represent. I’m also an animist. Which means that I think that everything is not the proper word, but a lot on this earth is alive in some way and has an energy of their own, a kind of of of consciousness. So for me, that’s also for pebbles. You know with all these tiny little pebbles you can find somewhere in nature might not have a huge conscious of their own, but then my animistic thinking is that there is a spirit of pebbles. And for a ritual like this, I might beforehand invoke the spirit of pebbles. Instead of humans, we put these pebbles in a position.

And for this ritual, we put them in a line. Imaging that that’s, uh, it is from the present, all the way back to the to the well. And it is, it is easier to to put them in a line, to image them in a line and you know that they’re floating everywhere and. But maybe Jochem, Michiel, Nancy you can add, otherwise I’m only talking.

15:19 Jochem

I haven’t said much yet because my experiences with ancestral fields are so different. And with this ritual, yeah, we were sitting around the table with this line representing from now to the, to the well. And what was special was that I was sitting at the end of the now end of the line of stones representing the now living generation of LGBTQIA+ people. So I was the connection with all the ancestors and living quiltbag people. Maybe Michiel and Nancy can say a bit more before I add experiences of the ritual.

15:57 Michiel

Yeah. For me it was a ritual Frigga and I have done more often with other people around, with Nancy as well. Perhaps it’s also nice to remark a little bit on we have also done this with a line of people representing the line of ancestors. Which worked really well when you were in a big group, but these were stones representing a line of ancestors. It really worked. It makes the ritual more intimate because you’re with, you are with a small group. And there are the different fields on their lines of in their different experiences with ancestors of all the people. But at least, at least a really, yeah,enclosed and intimate, as I said.

16:47 Nancy

Yes, on the intimate side of things. I also felt it was important because they’re also needed to be trust come into the field of ancestors, with a lot of people there. There should be also many opinions of them, maybe, or of the new generation. And with the stones they are just stones, but there’s so much more. So everybody can connect with them. Wanted that, without a human attached to it. It was different, also with other rituals because I felt a lot of distrust from out the field. It’s not, you know, strange but there is so much hurt and so much pain and so much not being seen with others or acknowledged to others and and now having a ritual especially for them. It’s also perceived as… yeah…

In Dutch, we have a sentence called de kat uit de boom kijken. You know, the cat, uh, leaves the tree only it has a good look at the ones below the tree. We had a talk Frigga and I this week and the sentence of showing your true colours. Is not giving yourself away, but showing your true colours and also ancestors feel needed to show their true colours. Because in the past there is a lot of hiding and hidden shame and grief. And I think that this with the working with the stones, was passion to make a safe space for them to show up. If they wanted to.

18:30 Frigga

And what is different to me with all my previous experiences with different kinds of the, the ancestral field. Is it? We have to be very careful. And, Yeah, because of there is a lot of distrust in there what is to all experiences in life perfectly understandable. So what we did, I think we’re going in a bit chaotic way through the ritual. But the ritual was in a way chaotic, as is often the case with us. We started after we placed the stones. And a frith cord around the table. Indeed, to make a safe space and you know you do the normal things as calling up the spirits protection.

And we started with introducing ourselves. And why we want to be part of it. So simply, I started with it, simply said I’m Frigga. And I am willing to listen. And some other stuff. But I think the most important thing is we are willing to listen. To be quiet and to listen what is needed in this field instead of, you know, stumbling into it and starting to do the usual things which often work. But here it is so important to communicate in a proper way and to listen to what the field needs. What I’m also used to is that there are more… it can be only a not even a handful, but… ancestral spirits who communicate with you and even here that is… it was actually only one who was speaking for the entire field.

20:09 Nancy

At first I was doubting myself because I was feeling well the urge of that somebody came through, but not fully, and it persisted a while… Looked into our conversation, but not saying much. Or nothing at all. But there was the trust again after Jochem also introduced himself. That there was somebody there of the new generation that trusted, you know, us, the rest. When she or he or they or them come through me, it felt like a tidal wave of emotions came also through. And for crying for several minutes before they talked again.

I felt honoured to be the vessel. To serve people who deserve to be served. They were talking about… they’re using the words in your vocabulary that I don’t use normally. So that is for me an account that that it’s not me speaking. And, uh, she showed her colour: Magenta. And she will be also the one we will be working with… but there are a lot of members who want to join in, I already know that. So I’m looking forward also to the new ritual. [Jochem: Hmm] [Suzanne: Hmm]

21:36 Suzanne

Hmm.To see if she comes through again.

21:39 Frigga

She does [Laughing]

21:40 Nancy

She already does. We’ve been listening all this whole conversation through me, so. Because that’s also a part to get trust and to be trusted how we talk, how we are as the working group, let’s call ourselves that uh, together in our communities. How we treat people. We gain their trust, uh, also in this conversation. [Suzanne: Hmm] And that is valuable, because there’s so much distrust. I never felt that that anywhere in any field. And we worked with ancestries of the second and the first World Wars. And I didn’t even felt that then. [Frigga: Mhm] [Suzanne:Mhm]

22.26 Jochem

And I think that my part in it was in that respect important, I felt being a sort of catalyst. [Frigga: hmhm] What I said before between, uh, the ancestors and the people now, but also between the quiltbag and ancestors and the allies here and and now. Yeah. It was, tt was a special experience to be this relay person, as it were.

23:02 Frigga

It was a special ritual. [Jochem: Yes] And I can relate to what you say, Nancy. It makes me really feel humble to do this and that there is, yes, some kind of trust. There is communication, there is contact. There is a beginning of acceptance of our help. And one of the things Nancy and I realised is that we have teach the field that no is a proper answer. Because they are so used to hiding and not being able themselves, and to have to fit in with the community or the society to survive, that they seem to have hardly any boundaries in that way.

So yeah, by talking indeed amongst one another as, as the living and people who are performing the rituals, that we talk about, how we see these things and talk about respect and safe space, and most likely we have to repeat that a couple of times. No is a proper answer and we will listen to it, because we might have all kind of ideas for future rituals, but maybe, the quiltbag ancestor spirits say no. And then we will listen to them and ask them how they would like it in different ways. So it’s, it’s… yeah, learning. We have to get to know one another. [Suzanne: Hmm]. And that, yeah, that will take here with this field a bit more time.

24:47 Michiel

Well, when I look at what my role was during the ritual, partly observer. But I think that especially for the more privileged people, who I consider myself as well, it’s also important to look at other people and see what don’t they have what I have. And how can I support them in gaining a bit more about what I have, to have for themselves as well. I think that’s an important lesson.

25:22 Frigga

Yeah. I think that again makes me humble [Michiel: Hmm] indeed to realise how privileged I am. It’s not obvious for other people to have the same privileges as I have. [Michiel: No] [Jochem: hm] And than again is listening, remain silent, keep our mouths shut [laughs] [Suzanne laughs] and just listen!

25:42 Suzanne

And listening to you all talk about that very profound, very personal experience. How, you know, we just started all of these thoughts around privilege around thinking about what other people’s experiences might have been. And feeling the emotions that are with those ancestors and being able to give them space, to have a platform to be able to maybe say the things they want to say, that they never had chance to. Or to be able to have someone that they can trust, which they may have never had. It sounds like a very powerful and personal experience.

And this work is is ongoing. You know, I think there will be more of these rituals to come and more of this, this healing work and, you know, listening to us, where we are being able to link back to those ancestors and for them to link to us for it to be two directions. [Frigga: Mhm.] It’s not just their messages coming forward to us, it’s ours going backwards to them as well.

22:48 Frigga

Yeah, it’s the interaction. [Suzanne: Hm] And as there are allies, I think Nancy, Michiel and I consider ourselves to be allies, there are allies amongst the ancestor spirits. Some of them, uh, have showed up and what we haven’t actually really had contact with them. We are going to do that in the next ritual next month. So we’re looking forward to that. Yeah, it’s it’s an amazing journey, in my opinion, to do these rituals and they will develop. Yeah, it’s learning for us as well and it will change me as well. Makes me think different on on things, which is a good thing. I always think that it’s a good thing when things make me think, okay. there are a lot of think.

[Frigga and Suzanne laugh]

27:45 Suzanne

I think this episode has been making me think as well. [Frigga and Suzanne laugh]

27:49 Frigga

Well, isn’t this the aim of our podcast? [Frigga laughs]

27:52 Suzanne

Yes, very much [Suzanne and Jochem laugh].

27:57 Suzanne

For me, that feels like a really nice point to end on that it is work that will continue. It is very deep and personal, very profound work, not only for allies, but for LGBT people to become involved in connecting to that guiltbag ancestral field and being able to create or recreate or reaffirm those supportive connections between those ancestors and ourselves here in the present day as well. So I think we are just about out of time for today.

I would like to thank Frigga and Jochem for joining us today, and also Michiel and Nancy for helping us understand more about working with the LGBT ancestral field in healing work and listening and being able to support those ancestral voices. So if you would like to look us up as The Wyrd Thing, you can find us on social media. We are on X, which was formerly known as Twitter and on Instagram, and we also have our website at The Wyrd Please join us next time for episode 22 of The Wyrd Thing. Goodbye.


Jochem: Bye,

Frigga: Bye,

Nancy and Michiel: Bye.

[end tune]

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